2020 Women's Artistic All Around Final (Thursday, July 29, 2021)

[Gabriel]

It just occurred to me, Rebeca’s floor has the best in terms of choreography, expression, and music. I’ve probably watched it over 10 times these past few days.

 

[cats]

I’ve felt for awhile that the double tuck and double pike are undervalued. I think a double tuck off beam is a lot harder than a full in off bars, for instance. That’s also part of the issue, at least the way it looks to me.

 

[RAFIKI]

The side-by-side comparison video exists…



Thank you lari4tokyo.

 

[onodian]

Yeah that double tuck isn’t helping

 

[dweiss324]

This completely reinforces the fact that the choreography isn’t actually designed according to the BEAT. At some points in the first half (before the choreo is even changed mind you), she’s literally nearly a full second off from herself. Can you imagine any other dance in the entire world where two people are doing the same dance and are a full second off from each other, and calling that acceptable?? It’s all just vaguely fluid posing, nothing to do with hitting the beat. Can you imagine a rhythmic team routine where the dancers are a full second off?

Maybe this is just general knowledge to some of you, but I literally can’t believe it. Is there no coach at the elite level clapping along and shouting “1, 2 and 3 and 4 and” at their gymnasts!?!?!?!

 

[onodian]

As a musician that regularly had to train actors and actresses musically, you’d be shocked how difficult the “1 and 2 and 3 and 4” game can get. I guess with some gymnasts you HAVE to work around general rhythm feeling and not precise synchrony. Mind you, if it’s done well it might be better than pose/pose/pose to the beat

 

[dweiss324]

I guess I disagree? I don’t think it’s that much work and effort to teach girls that are very physically gifted, and who have been doing some level of choreography to music THEIR ENTIRE LIVES, how to hit a beat. It should 100% be the exception not the rule. I mean I was in showchoir in HS for goodness sake with people that had no business being in show choir, and they figured it out. It might not have been pretty, but you best believe their arms were up at the right time. You have their entire lives to develop a musical foundation, it’s not like they were asked to dance for the first time yesterday.

 

[onodian]

I just meant to tell you some people are incredibly unmusical, right down to the most basic beat issues. I was shocked at how difficult it was to teach 20 year olds basic beat patterns and general basic musical tools. I guess if you do it right from the moment they are young it’s a different issue but these girls probably don’t really do this kind of thing until 12/13? And when someone doesn’t “hear it”, trust me it is WORK

Edit: choir is a completely different business, i guarantee you a whole choir might look Kind of ok, and if you pick them apart and make them all do it individually it’s a completely different story. I had the same with singing and entrances, the choir ones were OK, i could pin them on the stronger people, but if it’s just the one it’s a different thing.

I don’t mean to say it’s imposible, just that t might be very very hard for some, and quite some work for most. Which is the reason not a lot of people do it well

 

[dweiss324]

Regardless, the more worrying issue is that the choreographer is not designing routines according to the beat. It’s one thing for them to just be off, or a few gymnasts be so hopeless at dance and so they just say “eff it, your theme is now an awkwardly angular wave”, but that Zito guy or whoever that was choreographing Skinner’s routine didn’t even listen to the music when he was choreographing; the music was totally irrelevant!!! I CANT BELIEVE there is a musical CHOREOGRAPHER of DANCE that either can’t or doesn’t choreograph according to the music.

 

[KristyJ]

The thing is with floor routines, the skills don’t always take the same exact amount of time. You don’t want to be trying to do handsprings into a double tuck right on beat, you need to be trying to do them with proper execution without adding more to think about. So there does need to be a little bit of leeway. I think Suni largely dances with the beat, but doesn’t always land at the exact same nuance of the music. In places where you do need to be exactly on the music you need some way to adjust to get there. Sadly that is why you see gymnasts waiting in the corner after a stuck landing for their music- that is where I wish choreographers would give them an optional filler if needed.
The same is true to a degree in figure skating. Things happen that can put you off your music, and so while you can often choreograph highlights, and movements can be rhythmic, they are not always timed to an eight count all the way through because of the way jumps may differ, or spins may be faster or slower, on a given day. Edit to add- in skating it may be a little bit easier to adjust because you can add or subtract a crossover here or there, or lengthen an ending spin.
Edit #2- This is in no way meant to defend some of the choreography we see that suffers from many and various other problems, nor to say that there should never be eight counts. Just that gymnasts won’t be eight-counting their whole routine.

 

[dweiss324]

Some gymnasts do though, no? Totally agree that there should be built in pauses / optional filler or opportunities to lengthen out something for a few seconds to account for differences in landing times, especially around tumbles and maybe leap series (though it’s not like fully choreographed dance routines don’t often contain leaps and spins…). But correct me if I’m wrong, it is possible to count out an entire routine, no? I know some gymnasts absolutely dance to the beat (at least for extended portions), but do they do it to the whole thing? I have choreographed a little, but never for a floor routine myself, so maybe I just don’t know what I’m talking about.

 

[onodian]

This is a routine that is beat-heavy in the way it approaches the dance, and she was really very good at hitting all the beats that there were, but you can see (not in this particular routine but in other instances), because the routine is pretty much constructed without these flexible spaces, sometimes she runs into trouble and she doesn’t get to the beats after the tumbling. I’ve never tumbled in my life but from my experience with talking + playing it is very very hard to keep counting while doing things that aren’t necessarily in pulse with the music.

I also don’t particularly think choreographing “to the beat” is the only or even the best option available to gymnasts. Of course most egregious is something like aly who had this style of routine yet couldn’t hit a beat to save her life

 

[KristyJ]

I think it is possible to count out most of a routine, but you are always going to have some leeway built in around a tumbling pass. With that leeway, if the music is flowing like Suni’s, you may simply choose to move a count or two sooner and adjust as needed. Alternatively you may choose to wait for your musical cue to begin the next eight count. I’ve done both in the past, depending on the music, though I usually choreographed around cues and tried to have filler ready if I tumbled fast.

 

[arabiandoublefront]

I had a teammate who always winged a segment of her choreography to the beat because it depended on how fast she finished her back extension roll to handstand double pirouette.

 

[onodian]

Or you could just full on boginskaya get tired of waiting and just go and the music will follow



Yes I’m a boginskaya non-stan. Beautiful movement, but she certainly looks like one of these people unable to count like i said upthread

 

[Crow]

I just meant to tell you some people are incredibly unmusical, right down to the most basic beat issues. I was shocked at how difficult it was to teach 20 year olds basic beat patterns and general basic musical tools. I guess if you do it right from the moment they are young it’s a different issue but these girls probably don’t really do this kind of thing until 12/13? And when someone doesn’t “hear it”, trust me it is WORK.

I direct a community band–all adults, many of whom are playing an instrument for the first time–and let me tell you, this is ALL TRUE.

As a viewer, though, it is frustrating to watch dance that has at best a long-distance relationship with the beat. I seem to recall a gymnast in the past few years whose music was cut together so that it actually lost a beat at one of the splices. I can’t remember who it was, but it drove me crazy every time.

An example of a floor routine that didn’t build in enough time for adjustment was Bicherova’s in 1981–82. She often seemed to be a moment late for that second hard stop.

Here she hits it just about on time (00:59):



Here she doesn’t (1:05):

 

[Denn]

This was one of the advantages of having a live pianist. She or he could follow the gymnast a bit.

 

[dweiss324]

Jordyn weibers routine always comes to mind, you’re right that’s a great example of a routine actually choreographed to the beat and to the song. And she sold it. I completely see what you’re talking about, of her not able to fully find the beat sometimes, but you almost don’t notice it because so many gymnasts have routines that aren’t designed around the beat, that every time she hits a solid downbeat, it convinces you she’s dancing well. I always found her routine super convincing, but I’m realizing now that it’s because it’s relatively rare for routines to be designed around the actual song/beat.

Aly is the perfect counter example. Couldn’t find a beat to save her life like you say… I literally always thought it was because there was a slight delay in the sound between what we hear on a broadcast and what they hear in person, I never realized her routine was confident choreography composed without the beat ever in mind. At least her hava nagila routine frequently matched the tone of the song at the very least. This is blowing my mind. Fascinating

ETA: it seems, if I’m just remembering off the top of my head, like NCAA routines mostly adhere to the beat, and the minority “dont even bother”. Kind of the reverse

 

[Kittentoes]

I’m sorry to say that’s what I noticed first too. Not thrilled

 

[rlayt]

Aly’s dance issues seemed highlighted by her recycled choreography.