The Best of Each Event

[Sasha]

That LEO, my god. I bet Al and Armine were jelly.

 

[navyblue]

Here she is again sticking the Rudi vault!

 

[navyblue]

My entries:

Vault: Simone Biles. By my rationale, she is incontrovertible here. My rationale accounts for the superlative nature of her two unreplicated eponymous vaults, and the consistency with which she performed her gold standard Amanars and Chengs. So while Maroney might have done a more beautiful Amanar once or twice, she isn’t even close.

Bars: Khorkina represents both the past and future of the apparatus, with original and eponymous skills and diversity in both transitions, release moves, and pirouetting.

Beam: Yang Bo perfection and sheer disappointment characterize her history on this event, which seems narratively fitting for the most dramatic apparatus in WAG.

Floor: The only event to give me pause, but probably Simone Biles deserves the crown, because the artistic performances that I have most enjoyed, like Brooklyn Moors’ or Dee Dee Foster in NCAA have basically no competitive accolades to speak of… (which is another way of saying that while artistry makes for fan favorites, it has practically never made a meaningful dent in the actual outcomes of the sport!)

I will sign off with the hot take that I find the reputation of Soviet era ‘artistic’ floor routines to be largely overhyped for what amounts to a lot of second rate ballerina impersonations on the one hand and extremely cringey displays of cutesy, preening juvenilia on the other.

 

[JaJa]

I will sign off with the hot take that I find the reputation of Soviet era ‘artistic’ floor routines to be largely overhyped for what amounts to a lot of second rate ballerina impersonations on the one hand and extremely cringey displays of cutesy, preening juvenilia

This

 

[RedBirdie]

Ah, but the true masterpieces are sublime.

Not Soviet, but I am prepared to die on this hill: Onodi’s “West Side Story” is the greatest floor routine ever.

 

[Hatsumomo]

I will sign off with the hot take that I find the reputation of Soviet era ‘artistic’ floor routines to be largely overhyped for what amounts to a lot of second rate ballerina impersonations on the one hand and extremely cringey displays of cutesy, preening juvenilia.

Ooooh, shots fired. Lemme settle in for this debate.

I agree though.

 

[tempest]

Not Soviet, but I am prepared to die on this hill: Onodi’s “West Side Story” is the greatest floor routine ever.

oooh good choice but I do love her olympic routine a little better

 

[YurchenkoLoop]

I will sign off with the hot take that I find the reputation of Soviet era ‘artistic’ floor routines to be largely overhyped for what amounts to a lot of second rate ballerina impersonations on the one hand and extremely cringey displays of cutesy, preening juvenilia.

Yeah, that’s a pretty hot take and imo a gross reduction. These gymnasts were ostensibly doing much of the tumbling we see today but without springs. And the dance had syncopation, extension, leaps that lifted UP off the floor (not forward, cranking around turns), every head tilt was intentional.



How glorious is this? She doesn’t compete her full-in here, but I believe she was also the first WAG to do 1.5 stepout

Not to target her but since she was mentioned…what does Brooklyn Moors do on floor that you aren’t getting from Camelia Voinea or Naimushina, who weren’t the stars on their team?

 

[navyblue]

How glorious is that Mukhina floor routine? Well, if I’m answering honestly, it doesn’t make me feel much at all – I suppose it conjures a sort of dignified respect for the precision of her choreography, because, all those qualities you described are absolutely present, I agree: good posture, intentional movement, and yet it doesn’t come close to matching, for me, the emotion evoked from the moment Brooklyn Moors steps onto the floor, with her opening pose, the look in her eyes, and – I think this is a huge component of it – the smoky jazz sounds that are just more in line with my more contemporary-leaning musical taste than the piano-heavy classical pieces (often schmaltzy, imo) that feature prominently in Soviet routines.

Obviously, this is where the subjective element of an artistic discipline comes into play (and I imagine, based on your avatar, probably an element of nostalgia depending on the era of gymnastics that you cut your teeth on). I see a routine like this in the same way I see Victoria Listunova’s latest few routines, where I understand that she’s following the spirit of the CoP’s current artistry guidelines, but I really don’t care to sit through more of it than I have to. (Meanwhile, certain NCAA routines that have me dancing along in my chair are probably decades away from fitting FIG guidelines of “artistry”, a topic more heady than I want to address in this thread…)

All that said, I’m sure there are some gems I’ve never seen, and I’d love to check out your favorites from Naimushina or any others deep cuts beyond the canonical artistry ‘greats’ that always get circulated. : )

 

[onodian]

I would like to argue we shouldn’t be judging older routines with current eyes, or at least, we should be aware they might have been speaking to a different sense of aesthetics. I don’t stan all soviets but I do very firmly feel that some routines back there were really masterpieces, although I don’t think I have any hidden gems to present here. But as for teenie prepubescent cringe, I would say, to pick the obvious example, Omelianchik 85/86 (even 87 which is not so teenie anymore) is bringing down a full house with a routine in which not only with her dance and presentation but her tumbling is fully an artistic part of that routine. Put that same gymnast in NCAA and she blows the roof away of it all, just upgrading the choreo to what the ncaa style preference is. (full disclosure: not a big fan of the NCAA aesthetics). I think that’s what I enjoy the most about soviet routines when they go well, that everything was geared towards presentation and impact.

I do feel Simone would absolutely be in the position with her tumbling skills to do that but her presentation does not do it for me, although I would not be surprised if there was a poll and she were to come out first. Like we said above, it is very hard to compare. Even when you said Brooklyn moors eyes are enough for you, that’s not something we saw in Mukhina’s video, it’s hard to know whether she isn’t piercing your soul too.(disclosure again: I never got the love for Brooklyn, other than her phenomenal tumbling, but I only know her elite routines. For me she has the same problem many soviets or russian have, lovely arm-waving to pretty music, that’s that.)

But also, to end my morning rant, I would say the best floor worker needs to do more than speak to you artistically, at the end of the day this isn’t just dance or performance. I recently rewatched Lieke Wevers 2015 (disclosure again: I hate ludovico enaudi’s music) and I must say, if she had more impressive tumbling (think Moors for example) and one turn less (think f***k the code) I would put a routine like that up there too. It’s so well thought out, at no point do you think it’s sport, even though it clearly is, which for me is the objective of it all, that I’m so sucked into the performance that the sport sort of fades into the background.

and now imma get my well-earned coffee

 

[navyblue]

I do feel Simone would absolutely be in the position with her tumbling skills to do that but her presentation does not do it for me, although I would not be surprised if there was a poll and she were to come out first

Yeah, I mean her performance was always middle of the pack, neither abysmal nor exceptional, but I did always feel like she could have done more if she wanted or was incentivized to. (Unlike, say, Jade Carey who has proven in the last few years that she really is trying her damndest, to little avail). But the irony of Simone’s greatness is that her consistency/longevity means we take her for granted a bit, when in reality a stuck triple double should never fail to blow our collective minds. And yet this thread has the requisite hat tips to grainy VHS footage from that one time Vanessa Atler did a rudi vault (or even Yang Bo’s somewhat spotty track record on beam) because those flash-in-the-pan moments of brilliance are even more poetic, little talismans of would be greatness somehow more enticing than the proven champions.

 

[onodian]

I don’t think that’s a completely fair assessment, Ponor for example has shown up as best beamer and she is certainly nothing if not consistent and a long career. It’s not only little flashes. Is it that you think there’s too little talk about SImone? I don’t think anybody here will disagree to the triple double (specially how she does it) being insane.

And maybe Yang Bo’s tragedy adds to the feeling of it all, but it’s also hard to argue against her being named in this thread if you look at things like 89 worlds bb (sans dismount of course) in terms of tumbling ability on beam, dance elements and just the general impression. Finally, I think Vanessa’s and the other grainy footage sometimes is there to underscore these people are doing things on a different equipment. It’s not crazy to consider Atler would be capable of doing the Yeo on the table, which would make it the hardest vault being competed in the last Olympic EFs. I mean, for sure I don’t think she’s best vaulter ever, but it’s certainly a fair point to consider. It would be pretty unfair to just go by higher D score and that’s that, no?

 

[ArnoldRimmer]

But the irony of Simone’s greatness is that her consistency/longevity means we take her for granted a bit, when in reality a stuck triple double should never fail to blow our collective minds.

I actually think part of the reason is that whenever this subject comes up, we tend to shy more away from floor because it’s the hardest one to call. All the apparatus is different now to what it was a few decades ago, but on floor there’s also the element of subjectivity as well as the post 2000 dance bonus, attempts to codify artistry etc and the extent to which that (mostly) makes the task harder.

It’s not a coincidence that vault ended up getting talked about most on this thread. Obviously the horse to the table was a huge change, but we know where we are with that one and it’s easy to draw a line. So it lends itself best to discussion, and equally, there’s never going to be any real disagreement that Simone is either no 1 or no 2 in the table era. Beam feels more accessible too.

Floor, on the other hand, I for one think it’s a genuine apples and oranges. I couldn’t give you an answer. Too much has changed. I could do hundreds of posts on the subject, actively participate in any number of pissing contests, craft a persecution complex relating to the world’s failure to acknowledge Mo Huilan’s chicken dance, insist on viewing the topic solely through the prism of 1994 Euros… all of that is fine. But getting off the fence? That’s not happening.

And I know there’s not been much bars in this thread, but let’s be honest, that’s because the answer is probably Khorkina and people don’t want to give her any accolades at the moment. I don’t. I know I just wrote that she was the best but I’ll still find a way to deny it.

 

[YurchenkoLoop]

I imagine, based on your avatar, probably an element of nostalgia depending on the era of gymnastics that you cut your teeth on

It was actually Beijing 08 and Rotterdam '10 that did me in. But during the pandemic I watched all the major international competitions from the 80s

And yet this thread has the requisite hat tips to grainy VHS footage from that one time Vanessa Atler did a rudi vault (or even Yang Bo’s somewhat spotty track record on beam) because those flash-in-the-pan moments of brilliance are even more poetic, little talismans of would be greatness somehow more enticing than the proven champions.

There are many champions from yesteryears who were regarded as the greatest, revolutionized apparatuses, performed never before seen stunts, and insanely consistent (it was ostensibly 50/50 whether Silivas would do a perfect beam routine or have a single wobble). I’d argue the 10 code made it harder for one to become a repeat champion, as there was less margin for error. And there were loads more gymnasts in contention for titles than we see nowadays; there’s little competition at the top in modern day elite. Few today talk about how Shushunova nearly swept the 85 Euros or the 86 World Cup, but it doesn’t make her any less of a Capra Queen

And I know there’s not been much bars in this thread, but let’s be honest, that’s because the answer is probably Khorkina and people don’t want to give her any accolades at the moment. I don’t. I know I just wrote that she was the best but I’ll still find a way to deny it.

It’s Gnauck. Khorkina has a few more titles, but competitions were held less frequently when Gnauck was competing. Don’t worry, it’s Gnauck. And rest assured knowing that Mustafina has the longest reign of Olympic UB champion due to the Tokyo postponement.

 

[ArnoldRimmer]

I suppose even something as bloody awful as covid had that one positive…