Ask an Expert Judge, (aka the misc. technical questions thread)

[Denn]

I want to see a deduction for element value spread out too far apart in a routine, starting at values being further apart than two letters. For example, if you compete an E acro skill on BB, you cannot count a B. If you do, the E will only be given D value. I would look at gym and acro separately (maybe?) and I would apply this rule to composition requirements as well. I don't want to see the turn/roll requirement fulfilled by an A by gymnasts competing E skills.

You can solve the problem you are trying to solve with other strategies that are both easier to do and less punitive of reasonable exceptions. Generally, the idea is to reward instead of penalize.

 

[Aeris]

There's ways to reward creative use of elements without it being super subjective

It's difficult really, because the connection/series bonus system is never going to precisely reward everything correctly unless individual connections start being codified as their own specific bonuses. Not every beautiful thing in a routine will be a connection of that sort anyway.

What I'm trying to say is, the current artistry rules don't do enough to reward artistry. The beam code currently just forces people to do busy work with their body and actually suffocates the type of movement possible. There's no mention of being choreographically interesting or aesthetically beautiful as criteria. While it is quite subjective, the code (help desk) could at least include examples of full routines that are deemed to be "great, good, subpar, bad" artistry, if they do ever decide to institute some kind of a direct artistry mark.

 

[Snowfan]

Completely different topic but can someone tell me why this looks wrong? The skill that Simone is doing at 8:32.

It looks too vertical? Stiff? It is an inbar stalder right or is she doing something new? Sorry it's probably a dumb question but I just cant wrap my head around it.

 

[RedBirdie]

It's a crazy deep inbar

 

[MaryClare]

It's a crazy deep inbar

Haven’t seen in bars like that since Alexandra Shevchenko

 

[Caligym]

Haven’t seen in bars like that since Alexandra Shevchenko

OMG you made me look! You weren’t kidding!

 

[CameliasFingerpaint]

The bent arms aren’t cute, but Lia Parolari also had crazy deep inbars.

 

[Passion]

OMG you made me look! You weren’t kidding!

 

[makam]

It's a crazy deep inbar

It's kinda a badass flex for Simone to show she can do inbars like that but not even bother to put them in her routine, right?

 

[tempest]

IIRC Sloan had some very deep ones as well

 

[navyblue]

It's kinda a badass flex for Simone to show she can do inbars like that but not even bother to put them in her routine, right?

Mmm I don't think so... that's what it looks like when you're learning a stalder or toe-handstand and can't really do it yet. You sorta just do a loop and then press up to handstand. I don't think it's a flex... I think she can't quite do the skill yet. Idk exactly how it'd be evaluated or credited, but this is the "ask an expert judge" thread...

 

[Aeris]

Her leg touches the bar at the start of that inbar, it would be deducted.

 

[Denn]

It's difficult really, because the connection/series bonus system is never going to precisely reward everything correctly unless individual connections start being codified as their own specific bonuses. Not every beautiful thing in a routine will be a connection of that sort anyway.

There's ways.

 

[Aeris]

What would your proposal be?

 

[Denn]

What would your proposal be?

I'll speak about creative connections later, but for now, I'll say that you don't need bonuses for specific combinations to get most of it "fair". The trick, which FIG has never figured out, is to reward connections based on the biomechanics. Just a few simple rules work:

Uneven Bars (except kips):

• after flight, on or to the low bar: + 1 letter
• after flight, on the high bar: +2 letters
• after element with full turn or more: +1 (additional) letter
• after two or more flight/turn: +1 (additional) letter

Balance Beam:

• after flight:
  -accelerating into next element, +1 letter;
  -two-foot rebound or swing-through after flight: +2 letters
• after change of sight of the beam, including spins, dance with head release, flight with forward landing, flight with 1/2 twist or more: +1 (additional) letter
• after two or more flight/turn: +1 (additional) letter

Note that it's +1 letter instead of +0.1 so simple skills don't get rewarded, except for younger gymnasts doing only easy skills.

 

[Denn]

I updated the above. (I remembered that I had a better version)

 

[Aeris]

Hmm, that removes a lot of pirouette connections. Only .1 for Bhardwaj + flight/turn or Pak + Seitz makes me sad too

I don't like the +letter thing, it means there's no reward for extra skills after the top 8 in a lot of cases. Like a Stalder 1/2 after Pak or a Stalder Hecht after Bail, those would just become another D skill and not necessarily add anything to a routine.

 

[Denn]

Thanks @Aeris . Some responses:

1) I added back the full turn rule I accidentally deleted — that addresses the pirouette/ Bhardwaj issues.

2)Very few gymnasts do extra Cs and Ds anyway — too many deductions — but lower-ability gymnasts might count the C elements you listed. And those could even become E if the Pak comes after a flight or turn or for something like Bail HS + stalder full + free hip hecht.

3) But I'm guessing that the real reason you want to see those skills is becuase they are cool, not because they are hard. Again, that can be rewarded, but through another structure — a post for another day, like I said.

4) Doing bonuses with value raising prevents gymnasts from the boring and codewhorey trend of tacking on easy tricks (front aerial + split + straddle or L-spin + full spin) and encourage combos that build a bit. (You can imagine all kinds of examples.)

5) The Wevers sequence that you like would be a jackpot because the split leap, very hard in that context, could actually count: C + B + F + D + E. She could count four elements there if she wanted. Kui Yuanyuan's series would get a D for the third split element in addition to what she would get now. (And actually, the BHS would be a C, too.) Her full would also be a J because punches from 2 feet and it's third in the series!

I'd also offer that it rewards lots more lower level series for younger gymnasts. The rules would work for everyone, not just the top elites.

 

[Aeris]

The Wevers sequence that you like would be a jackpot because the split leap, very hard in that context, could actually count: C + B + F + D + E. She could count four elements there if she wanted.

It would just be C + D at the end for the split leap and straight 1/1 jump wouldn't it? They each get .2 letter raise with what you proposed? Or are you saying to put the split leap back to a base of B and the straight 1/1 back to C? (could see it for the split leap, but the straight 1/1 probably should stay B).

The part about counting 4 elements is the problem either way though. This doesn't reward the packed-full-of-content routines. Normally in Sanne's routine she's only trying to count the double turn (D) in the sequence, and currently she gets .3 bonus (for me it should be .4). With the letter-raising thing, she's just getting an F skill out of the whole sequence, aka .2 bonus. Same thing with Kui's split leap series - the current top Chinese routines are already doing 8 D+ skills anyway; adding 3 split leaps to generate another D is no extra bonus.

I also don't mind slower connections being well rewarded when they are difficult, like the Side Somi + Tuck 1/1 of Zhou Yaqin, I'm happy with that being .2 right now and would like to see other challenging non-rebounding connections such as Onodi + BHS 1/1 get .2

 

[Denn]

Again, @Aeris, you are trying to lean on difficulty-oriented bonuses to reward cool, creative combos. They are different merits. So they can have separate rewards.

(That said, most gymnasts would be lucky to count C, F, C, D in a 5-element series.)