Russia-Ukraine War: Effects on Gymn World

[Denn]

Too many people think the ban exists to punish people they don’t like

I resonate with this sentiment. The chess world took a different approach — they banned individual players based on statements or actions. So for example, Ian Nepomniachtchi (one of the top 3 chess players in the world, depending on how you look at it), has played very, very regularly (under the FIDE flag, not Russia’s) as have many other Russians. But some have not been allowed to play internationally at all.

It’s a little more work, but I think it’s fairer.

 

[Passion]

And didn’t you have to have a full team at Euros for gymnastics this year to have a team there next year? And finishing at a certain place is what gets your team into Worlds? And you have to finish top 9 of current unqualified teams at worlds next year to make the Olympics?

Hypothetically if Russia was unbanned tomorrow, the gymnasts would be fine for the Olympics. The most important thing to get a full Russian gymnastics team in Paris ‘24 is getting unbanned before ‘23 Euros. There’s no qualifier for Euros, they can send a full team as long as they are not banned.

European Championships are April 11-16, 2023 in Turkey.

They have to compete there to qualify a full team to ‘23 Worlds.

They have to place top 9 as a team at ‘23 Worlds to qualify a full team to the Olympics.

If Russia is still banned by April there won’t be a Russian team at the Olympics.

 

[MaryClare]

That wouldn’t work for Olympic sports. The gymnasts, coaches and officials are salaried employees of the ministry of sport. Many will also represent clubs from the army sports club organisation (BC). They don’t realistically have the ability not to be seen to endorse the government. Obviously there are some who’ve made their opinions very clear, like Kuliak and Nagorny. But would you continue to ban Melnikova on the basis that she attended the annual victory day parade? What about athletes from other countries such as Chuso who have participated in pro war propaganda shows and received money for doing so?

 

[JDB]

Yes whilst some of what you say is correct, none of that is relevant to the ban. It’s just the emotions you feel about the ban and the whole situation.

It is also prudent to remember that whilst this is seemingly very emotive for gymnastics fans due to the prominence of Russia/Ukraine/USSR in the sport, for sport as a whole, it’s not as prominent an issue

Other countries pushed to get Russia banned from the Paralympics, a multi-sport event. So your claim that this isn’t a big deal in sports as a whole is wild. And Ukrainians are the ones pushing hardest to keep Russia banned while the war is ongoing.

So there is, “widespread misunderstanding regarding the sports ban,” among Russians. Ukrainians understand the sports ban and the rest of the world’s going along with them.

 

[MaryClare]

You are not understanding at all.

You, and since you seem to think you speak for Ukrainian athletes, them too may wish to think that the ban is so Ukrainians don’t have to compete alongside Russians. But it isnt. That isn’t debatable or open to interpretation. That is fact.

The feelings of you, or Ukrainian athletes isnt why Russia have been banned, and won’t be a factor in Russia potentially being unbanned.

I certain didn’t not claim it isn’t a big deal in sports as a whole, I said it’s a bigger deal for gymnastics because of Russia and Ukraine’s history in the sport. In many other sports, Russia and Ukraine are completely insignificant. This also leads to it being a far more emotive subject amongst gymnastics fans. Who are not necessarily on the same page as the wider world of sports governance.

However, if you really think the Paralympic movement carries any sort of sway in sports politics then I have a bridge to sell you. Now if as you say, there is still significant support in certain sports for the continued banning of Russian athletes to the point where many would boycott competitions, then those governing bodies may well have to accept the will of their members.

 

[tsarinajen]

Professional athletes, like Ovechkin would never get their visas revoked here. There’s too much money to be made — even if hockey isn’t the most popular of the big sports here in the states.

Honestly, I wouldn’t really punish any of the women’s gymnastics team. I wouldn’t want them to complicate their life after sports by trying to get unbanned with some messy declaration.
The men, I guess is a slightly different story especially their more outspoken “Russianess” if you will, but that’s where personal feelings and biases come more into play.

I still say we’ll see Russia at Europeans next year.

 

[MaryClare]

That’s where it gets complicated though.

Listunova and Urazova did attend a pro war rally. But were minors at the time.
Melnikova appeared on an army parade during victory day.
Chusovitina is a non Russian who has appeared in several of Nemov’s pro war gymnastics shows that her image has been used to promote. She’s been paid to do so, and as someone who is a citizen of an EU country, had every freedom and choice in doing so. Should she be banned?

 

[RedBirdie]

Professional athletes, like Ovechkin would never get their visas revoked here. There’s too much money to be made — even if hockey isn’t the most popular of the big sports here in the states.

I’m just imaging Ted Leonsis losing his fucking mind if Ovechkin had his visa pulled. Never mind all the other Russians and Belarussians on the Capitals roster (and NHL in general)

Interesting side note: Ovechkin’s children were all both born during the off-season…in Florida.

 

[MaryClare]

If he lives in the US, it’s not surprising that his kids were born there?

 

[Denn]

[some people] may wish to think that the ban is so Ukrainians don’t have to compete alongside Russians. But it isnt. That isn’t debatable or open to interpretation. That is fact.

Are you saying that avoiding having to compete side-by-side is not even part of the reason? Also, do you think that the (sole?) reason is political punishment of Russia? something else? Just want to clarify your position.

Chusovitina is a non Russian who has appeared in several of Nemov’s pro war gymnastics shows that her image has been used to promote. She’s been paid to do so, and as someone who is a citizen of an EU country, had every freedom and choice in doing so. Should she be banned?

Yep. Ban Chuso.

 

[MaryClare]

I’m sure it is a consideration anecdotally. But it is not the reason. If it was it opens the doors for many countries to insist that they shouldn’t have to compete alongside another. The situation in Ukraine is not even the only active conflict within the former Soviet Union, let alone the world!

The problem is, there is no precedent for banning non Russians who support the war. Or indeed banning individuals for their political beliefs

 

[Denn]

The problem is, there is no precedent for banning non Russians who support the war. Or indeed banning individuals for their political beliefs

Belarus?

 

[Doug1233]

Yep. Ban Chuso.

As much as I hate to agree… what the FUCK was she thinking?

 

[MaryClare]

No, like Russia have, Belarus have a whole country ban. Individuals have not been banned

 

[MaryClare]

Money, presumably. But she has dual nationality of Uzbekistan and Germany, so unlike Russian athletes she absolutely does have a choice.

 

[Doug1233]

And she’s a grown fucking woman!!

 

[RedBirdie]

If he lives in the US, it’s not surprising that his kids were born there?

He goes back to Russia every offseason. He’s fiercely proud of being Russian. Both kids could could have been born in Russia but that the decision was made to rearrange their schedules so the kids could be born in the US was interesting.

 

[RedBirdie]

Usually as soon as the season is over, they go back to Russia, and don’t return until mid-September. But for the first kid they stayed in the US until mid-summer, and the second they came back to the US in July. Very unusual for a a guy who typically spends as much time as possible in Russia.

 

[JDB]

I should clarify two terms I used. “WADA noncompliance,” refers to Russia being non-compliant with Russia over the past eight years (or so). “The Valieva fiasco,” refers to the 2022 Olympics. Russia was offensive on top of previous anti-doping violations. Even if the war ends during the season, the other ISU members won’t let Russia back in immediately.

Gymnastics is a different story. I predict Russian gymnasts will be allowed back in competition once the war ends.

 

[Passion]

Are you saying that avoiding having to compete side-by-side is not even part of the reason? Also, do you think that the (sole?) reason is political punishment of Russia? something else? Just want to clarify your position.

The only reason for any of the bans (sports, bank accounts, travel, oil, property seizures, etc.) was to put pressure on Russia to withdraw and end the war immediately, if not economically force them to.

I agree with MaryClare, the sports ban had nothing to do with preventing Ukrainians and Russians from being in the same room together. That’s a nice perk but not the reason. It was meant to be part of the pressure campaign. Putin loves sports, so take away his toys.

As much as I hate to agree… what the FUCK was she thinking?

Since she does the Nemov show every year, it’s possible she relies on that paycheck.