2023 Winter Cup

[Doug1233]

For the switch half, you took off for “precision”. We usually wouldn’t use “precision” for hip alignment, right? — that would be a body shape deduction. I figured you deducted for something else I didn’t see. If not, then we deducted the same amount for the same thing.

Yes it might fall under body shape now.

Would love your breakdown of Roberson and Booth (and Disidore too if you have time).

 

[Doug1233]

I would say the double tuck pass is minimum .4 in steps.

That’s fair. 1 tenth more than me.

The Front Double Full is not a 0.3 step.


I still don’t see how we can get to a 7.25 while maintaining the same 7.5 pen for Disidore and Roberson.

 

[Denn]

I feel like that picture shows a 0.3 step.

 

[YurchenkoLoop]

I just watched Booth’s routine and have it at a high 6/low 7. Major landing deductions. The split ring looks like a .1 deduction to me–the switch ring is great.

For her switch 1/2, there are three possible deductions, the most obvious one being the hip alignment in the split. The other deductions are the precision of her feet on landing, and the hop out of the leap. Gymnasts are permitted to lunge out of leaps, and deliberate choreography would also help avoid this deduction–Booth has a tiny shuffle when she lands her switch 1/2 prior to her low-to-floor choreo

 

[Doug1233]

A high 6??

My point is that the same pen isn’t being used.

If you’re taking multiple tenths for her dance elements, then to keep the same pen everyone else is getting 3s and 5s for everything. Which they obviously aren’t.

Judge the other routines like this and post a breakdown.

 

[Doug1233]

I feel like that picture shows a 0.3 step.

It’s borderline, I guess. But she dances out of it too.

Would like to see your breakdowns.

 

[YurchenkoLoop]

Yes a high 6. Three of her landings cost her at least a point. This routine scored a 7.2 from USAG and multiple posters scored her there, deducting .1 or .2 off in artistry. What we’ve learned from Concorde and brevet judges on Twitter is that artistry is being taken very seriously this quad. She could be deducted for insufficient amplitude, poor foot work (1:14 her supporting leg is entirely turned in after her 1/2 turn in back attitude), poor expressive engagement according to the style of the music, poor choreo in the corner, and .1 background music

She definitely has complex choreography. The whole low-to-floor sequence is excellent and clearly a complex movement that requires previous preparation, the same for her Silivas knee turn at the end

A high 6 is pretty good given the landing errors. Afterall, the Olympic champion scored an 8.066, and none of the other medalists scored higher than 8.3 E during the Games

 

[Doug1233]

Three of her landings cost her at least a point.

I took off 0.7 (1, 3, 3) for steps. I can see taking 1.0 (3, 3, 4) but no higher than that for steps. But that’s 3 tenths difference over 3 tumbles. A very reasonable disagreement. That doesn’t explain why our scores differ.

multiple posters scored her there, deducting .1 or .2 off in artistry

I took 2 off for Artistry and still had her at a 7.9

She could be deducted for insufficient amplitude, poor foot work (1:14 her supporting leg is entirely turned in after her 1/2 turn in back attitude), poor expressive engagement according to the style of the music, poor choreo in the corner, and .1 background music

There’s absolutely no way in hell she’s getting a 5 for artistry. Watch the other routines that got a mid 7 with much worse feet, less choreography, less expression, worse amplitude, worse posture, worse leg extension. You’d have to take 8s and 9s for those if a 5 for Booth is fair.

Yes a high 6.

Would love to see your breakdown side by side with Disidore and Roberson (who each scored USAG 7.6)

 

[Doug1233]

The split ring looks like a .1 deduction to me

For arms?
View attachment 7022

 

[KristyJ]

For what it’s worth, @Doug1233 , I went back and did Roberson’s and Disidore’s, and I have them at 7.1 and 7.3 respectively (or 6.3 if I call that movement out of the wolf spin a fall). But that is being very picky with details like feet, legs on handsprings, step size, and turn precision. So I have all three in the same neighborhood. If Booth hadn’t had her landing errors she would have been far ahead.

 

[Kara]

I had Booth at 7.4, Roberson 6.9

 

[Doug1233]

I went back and did Roberson’s and Disidore’s, and I have them at 7.1 and 7.3 respectively (or 6.3 if I call that movement out of the wolf spin a fall)

I had a 6.5 for Disidore and I didn’t feel I was being picky at all:

I have:

Silivas (1 legs, 3 chest, 1 step)
Popa (1 body shape, 1 precision)
DLO (1 legs, 3 body posture, 3 hop)
Switch (1 body shape)
Switch 1/2* (1 body shape, 1 precision, 1 off-balance)
Single Wolf* (1 body shape, 1 precision)
Split 1/1* (1 precision)
1 Pause
Back 3/2 - Front 1/1 (1 legs x 2, 1 lack of stretch, 1 step)
1 Pause
Double Pike (1 feet, 3 medium hop, 1 small hop)
Artistry 3 - Complexity, Corners, Upper Body Posture

E - 6.5 (A3)

Which ones do you not agree with?

 

[Ginger]

Guys, I don’t want to rain on your expert judging parade, but could you please explain the ‘artistry’ part?
I found this document https://www.gymnastics.sport/publicdir/rules/files/en_2022-2024 WAG COP.pdf and it looks like that ‘corners’ thing is actually part of composition deduction, not artistry?
Also, what is the maximum ‘Artistry & Composition Deductions’? Is the 0.3 in second column the maximum deduction for that whole group, or for "Poor expressive engagement…’ and ‘Background music’ alone? (if the latter is correct, then maximum deduction could be up to 1.6; if the former, only 0.9)
It’s on p. 56 of the document

 

[Doug1233]

and it looks like that ‘corners’ thing is actually part of composition deduction, not artistry?

I list all artistry/composition/music deductions under the broader “artistry” group, just for ease. But yes, technically, corners and complexity are “composition” deductions.

 

[navyblue]

Also, what is the maximum ‘Artistry & Composition Deductions’? Is the 0.3 in second column the maximum deduction for that whole group, or for "Poor expressive engagement…’ and ‘Background music’ alone? (if the latter is correct, then maximum deduction could be up to 1.6; if the former, only 0.9)

It’s the latter. Mostly 1 tenth deductions with the few exceptional cases that can actually be 3 tenths. So up to 1.6 off in artistry is possible.

 

[rlayt]

Who or what routine has received big artistry deductions?

 

[KristyJ]

I wish we could know how they did Jade’s routine at Worlds because I have a feeling it would be informative in that regard

 

[Denn]

BTW — for people who are still saying “the judges don’t care about artistry”, the fact that there is a spreadsheet checklist for artistry is strong evidence that judges are evaluating every exercise for EVERY category.

 

[irichluck21]

Who or what routine has received big artistry deductions?

The feedback given to USAG was that on average the US Pan American Gymnastics Championships team last year was averaging about .8 in overall artistry deductions.

We won’t really know because the artistry deductions are taken in E score.

@Doug1233 and I have discussed having it be separate, but that would likely make it too confusing.

 

[rlayt]

Thanks Rich! I remember now. I’m so curious about what deductions are taken given the discussions we’ve had about various gymnasts.