2023 Winter Cup

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Marta relaxed near the end of her career.
But she was very much a dictator as NTC. Her rules and everyone must abide by them.
Gymnasts needed to be disciplined and controlled.

Marta definitely made comments about athletes wearing corn rows. I think it was Nicole Harris or Tia Orlando who had corn rows and Marta told her that if she’s competing on a US team she couldn’t have them.
Sacramone used to have some crazy hair and Marta made her smooth it out.

With Marta, you have to have a bun or tight ponytail.

Some gymnasts got away with a little more due to being a favorite. Sacramone and Maroney definitely were treated a bit differently.
 
@ makam
@ Caledi

I think I should rephrase my statements more about Safe Sport. My understanding about Safe Sport was the gymnastics experience has to be completely black or white for the athlete. The adults (coaches, trainers and the parents) and everyone else have to accept gray areas. When in doubt the athlete is right (within reason.) They have to accept the athlete “as is,” cannot be labeled as wrong, and the gymnast’s views cannot be challenged.

I hearken back to an experience I had back in the late 1990s online when a lower level USA’s gymnast’s routine was criticized by a poster. The individual said that the gymnast tried to do a Tkatchev, but she was “not even close” to catching the bar. And then said that she got up and regrouped and did a beautiful Jaeger as if her fall didn’t happen.

Shortly thereafter, her coach took to the same forum to shame the poster for saying she “wasn’t even close.” If his goal is to make a little girl cry then he succeeds. The poster did not know how hard she had been working on that skill and she was in tears over reading that statement. The coach had to accept her view “as is.” He could not say “get over it girl because ppl are going to criticize you online.”

Episodes like this happen. And I’m only bringing it up because it questions what the people can tell this girl and what they can’t. Under a safe sport you can’t say anything negative I believe so I don’t see how they can walk up to this gymnast and say “look you’re basically have to start over.” Even if they attempt to work with her and she gets frustrated so they stop, what more can they do?

We do not know the temperament of these gymnasts. Only the coaches know. So to blame them for not doing something may not be their fault. Some gymnast you just cannot fix. Not everyone can grow up and be a perfect gymnast. For example, using gymnast who have finished their career, I can name several. Alexi Nemov couldn’t hold an iron cross to save his life on the rings, yet is the most successful Russian gymnast ever. Produova wouldn’t lift with her arms when she’s tumbled backwards. Aly Raisman wouldn’t point her feet on even bars. Alicia Sacrimony told the world “I’m not really flexible I just jumped really hard.” And they all have World and Olympic medals.

When I see a gymnast who is struggling to do things that people consider basic I wonder if the coaches and staff are hindered in how they approach the problem. Maybe they have tried, it did not work, and they’re just hoping she’s going to have an epiphany and start changing. At the end of the day she’s not doing any physical damage to herself.

This becomes of paramount importance because people are so worried about what’s going to happen with their gyms and their programs if one gymnast speaks out.
So some gymnasts don’t do something properly that we think is important. Maybe there are other reasons and it’s not just bad coaching. Maybe they are so petrified of a negative response? Many fans just want blood. Look what happened to Liukin when Atler talked about her weight gain and what he did. She was taking about as if it was a joke and it would settle itself because she thought so, and he lost a career. And these gyms for some coaches are businesses. They have to worry about where the money is going to come to support themselves and pay the bills.

So with that being sent wouldn’t it be more accurate to look at other gymnasts from the same club and see if the problem exists with them? That way you could see it’s a coaching problem versus an athlete problem and fear of repercussions.
 
As someone who competed in the late 1990s/early 2000s I can tell you that 1) Safe Sport didn’t really have an impact then (I don’t think it even existed), and 2) that coaches definitely weren’t afraid of saying stuff that might be considered hurtful by a sensitive gymnast, and 3) they would absolutely tell you if a skill was wise or not. Whatever one coach (or parent) said online was definitely not close to representative of the average take on it.
Sincerely,
One former banana-back handstander who sometimes had fire-hydrant attitude positions in spins and was (rightly) sent back to basics on bars and some back tumbling when I wanted to do more
 
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SafeSport wasn’t even established until 2017. So, frankly, I’m calling bullshit that some coach in the late 1990s felt their career and livelihood were in jeopardy if they said “get over it girl because ppl are going to criticize you online.”

Goodness knows far far far worse things were said and done, with no repercussions. Al Fong threw a springboard at Amanda Stroud in 2000ish and he’s still coaching.
 
Look what happened to Liukin when Atler talked about her weight gain and what he did. She was taking about as if it was a joke and it would settle itself because she thought so, and he lost a career.
This is a very unfair flattening of context here.

Atler has talked about her lifelong struggle with binge eating and weight fluctuations so severe that she admitted being worried she might accidentally pass down her bad habits to her daughter – as in, a multi-generational problem. And yes, she will occasionally make self-deprecating jokes about this because what else can she do? She has spoken in very nuanced detail about her experience, going great lengths to humanize Liukin and not make this a black-and-white “evil” situation while emphasizing the lesson in her experience, which is that well-intentioned coaches can cause lasting psychological damage to their pupils if they aren’t thoughtful about their pedagogy.

And as for Liukin’s “career”, it would be far more accurate to say he “lost one particular job opportunity” due to the cumulative effect of Atler and many other gymnasts’ negative experiences, while maintaining a presence as one of the most successful professionals in the sport, and running the gym with perhaps the single most successful elite program to this day – he is far from a pariah by any means.
 
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I think I should rephrase my statements more about Safe Sport. My understanding about Safe Sport was the gymnastics experience has to be completely black or white for the athlete. The adults (coaches, trainers and the parents) and everyone else have to accept gray areas. When in doubt the athlete is right (within reason.) They have to accept the athlete “as is,” cannot be labeled as wrong, and the gymnast’s views cannot be challenged.
Coaching has changed… but for the better. What you are stating is not what I am seeing as a coach at all. Upper level coaches and athletes must now work together more than ever before… that’s all. It’s like a job… and work-life balance… people want to be treated as more than just a worker. Elite gymnastics is much more of a job than a hobby or a passion… there must be work-life balance. There must be two way communication as the athlete gets older (by older I mean before age 12)… they must have input. The athletes definitely didn’t have this in the past (much communication or life balance)… most of the coaches didn’t have work-life balance at all.

I’m just rambling off the top of my head… but it’s good times… it’s just an adjustment period into the modern.
 
What is more, Liukin chose to step down. Yes, he chose to because of the impact on his family from the allegations, but he wasn’t fired or barred from the position by USAG. So stating that he lost his job is technically incorrect. (Edit to make sure I note that I am agreeing with your position here and adding on a thought, not trying to contradict you, navyblue)
 
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I broadly agree, but I can’t imagine Valeri would’ve been able to stay in that job had he not gone of his own volition.
 
Yeah, she won vault and was 2nd on BB/FX. 29th out of 32 on bars.
 
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Vault: 5.2/8.8/14.00 (vault 2: 5.0/8.6/-.1/13.5)





Bars: 5.1/5.75/10.85



Beam: 6.0/7.3/13.3



Floor: 6.0/7.55/13.55

 
Vault medals were only awarded to those who did 2 vaults, which was only Roberson and Fatta.
 
Out of one-vault only scores, was she still 2nd? A 14.0 probably was one of the better vault scores.
 
Yeah they were being super harsh on E on vault it wouldn’t surprise me that a 14.0 won.
 
Top single vault scores:
  1. Brynn Torry: 14.1 (5.0/9.1)
  2. Joscelyn Roberson: 14.0 (5.2/8.8)
  3. Addison Fatta: 13.9 (5.0/8.9)
  4. Amelia Disidore 13.85 (5.0/8.95)
  5. Zoe Miller: 13.65 (4.6/9.05)
    Elle Mueller: 13.65 (4.6/9.05)
  6. Ashlee Sullivan: 13.6 (5.0/8.6)
    Katelyn Rosen: 13.6 (4.6/9.0)
  7. Charlotte Booth: 13.55 (4.6/8.95)
  8. Kaliya Lincoln: 13.5 (4.2/9.3)
    Katelyn Jong: 13.5 (5.0/8.5)
    Levi Jung-Ruivivar: 13.5 (4.6/8.9)
Top names not showing vault: Skye Blakely, Tiana Sumanasekera

(I know the numbering doesn’t account for ties, I can’t get it to turn off the autonumbering. It’s top ten with a three way tie in 10th)
 
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