Russia-Ukraine War: Effects on Gymn World

[JaJa]

Putin threatening those who oppose him is nothing new. We have seen he is even willing to have them killed on foreign soil. Perhaps the west woke up to it, but nothing in that speech is different to what we have heard here for years.

What you have been hearing and what in fact Putin has been doing, anyone hear of Alexei Navalny? MC is right. This is nothing new.

 

[MaryClare]

Interestingly, Urazova has posted this photo from backstage at the rally. No one wearing any Zs at this point and simply captioned “Olympic family”

 

[rlayt]

Remember when the humanitarian corridors proposed by Russia led only into Russia. Now this which prompted accusations of intent for ethnic cleansing. If you want to wipe out a group there are ways other than killing every last one.

Ukraine accuses Russia of kidnapping children from occupied Donbas

According to the Foreign Ministry, 2,389 children from Russian-controlled Donbas were "illegally deported" to Russia. "The facts of abduction of children, as well as other facts of crimes of the Russian occupiers against civilians in Ukraine, are being investigated by law enforcement agencies,"...

kyivindependent.com

 

[Doug1233]

the humanitarian corridors proposed by Russia led only into Russia

Not only that, but Russia was intentionally bombing the corridors they had just set up, as people tried to escape.

Just next level barbarism.

 

[JaJa]

Russia is engaging in a war, the intent of which is to in essence recreate the Soviet Union and undo 1991. Its not about ethnic cleansing. Putin claims Ukraine is part of Russia and that Ukrainians and Russians are the same people and the same nation – and therefore a separate sovereign entity of Ukraine has no legitimacy. What Putin is doing is a blatant violation of international law and his actions are totally barbaric. But it is not ethnic cleansing. It just is not helpful to make accusations that have no real basis. This is not a defense of Putin – quite the opposite. I go so far as to support a NATO imposed no fly zone and short of that sending Zelensky all the weapons he is asking for and imposing far broader economic sanctions. But it is just not helpful to level accusations willy nilly that really are not true.

 

[MaryClare]

Yes, exactly this. There are millions of Ukrainians living in Russia. If Putin wanted to wipe out Ukrainians, he’d have started with them.

Russia’s refugee/asylum policy is tied into a major domestic policy, which is to reverse the population decline in Sibir and Far East. So people are almost always placed there, unless they have family to take them in. It has been the case for a while that any illegals found in Russia will not be deported unless they have committed crimes. Instead they will be given 5 year work permit to an assigned city (always in Asian Russia)

The Kyiv Independent is the Ukrainian equivalent of Russia today. It is pro Zelensky propaganda media aimed at English speaking audiences. A great deal of what it reports is absolute rubbish, or selective with the facts at best.

 

[rlayt]

Ethnic cleansing - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

You can pick different words for your own description Jaja but Putin’s action is a parallel with deportation of a group. It is very like what happened in a different part of Europe where the genocide definition didn’t apply but ethic cleansing may. It is a forced removal. On one hand he wants to take the adult people and homogenize them into Russians or kill them. He wants to bomb kindergartens and childrens’ hospitals, kidnap and take their children away from them thus taking away their futures.

Whatever Putin’s intent is he is destroying the Ukrainian people. Your word “helpful” needs some context. Helpful to who or what?

 

[JaJa]

The Kyiv Independent is the Ukrainian equivalent of Russia today. It is pro Zelensky propaganda media aimed at English speaking audiences. A great deal of what it reports is absolute rubbish, or selective with the facts at best.

Maybe. But it is not as if Zelensky needs a “propaganda” machine right now. The truth is on his side. 100%. I just see no value in making all kinds of inaccurate accusations.

 

[JaJa]

It is not at all what is happening. Who exactly is it that you think Putin is trying to “cleanse” out of Ukraine? His fundamental claim is that they are all Russian. He is trying to subjugate Ukrainians. That is a different matter.

 

[rlayt]

He wants them to be Russian. They are not Russian so he attempts to force them to be Russian or to leave and disperse thus cleansing them of their Ukrainianism. It doesn’t matter what his intent is because his actions are what are important.

 

[MaryClare]

Well, the basics of what it’s saying is true. But this is what happens to all refugees in Russia. You don’t get to choose where you go and your immediate accommodation will be at a processing centre.

I think it’s important that it is pointed out when things are quoted from propaganda media organisations. So that people know to analyse them critically

 

[MaryClare]

No, he doesn’t. He thinks Ukraine belongs to Russia. He has called Russia the big brother and Ukraine the little brother.

There is so much shared culture between us that he’d be wiping out his own culture.

 

[JaJa]

Well, the basics of what it’s saying is true. But this is what happens to all refugees in Russia. You don’t get to choose where you go and your immediate accommodation will be at a processing centre.

I think it’s important that it is pointed out when things are quoted from propaganda media organisations. So that people know to analyse them critically

No idea what your point is. Russia is kidnaping Ukrainian kids. What does that have to do with how Russia processes refugees???

 

[JaJa]

He wants them to be Russian. They are not Russian so he attempts to force them to be Russian or to leave and disperse thus cleansing them of their Ukrainianism.

well, some are Russian but thats beside the point. Look, its not ethnic cleansing. Trying to take over another country is not ethnic cleansing.

 

[MaryClare]

The majority of civilian deaths have occurred in ethnic Russian areas. So much so that many previously pro Russia people are now fighting the Russians because of the death and destruction inflicted

 

[rlayt]

When you do the things he is doing to the people of the country it is a crime against them very like the type during the Yugoslav wars. It meets the definition of ethnic cleansing. He would take them, process them at processing centers. He dispersed them through this war to take over their land. He takes away their children. What do you think he does with them? They won’t learn about their own traditions, their own culture. They will be “processed”. They will be lucky if they learn even the things they shared with Russia. The children will be taught Russian propaganda. Putin wants a homogenous people who obey strictly what they are told.

 

[MaryClare]

What are you talking about?! Have you ever been to Russia? It’s an incredibly ethnic diverse country that has never been, and could never be homogeneous. Putin and others who yearn for the Soviet Union, see it as cultures uniting. That was always the mainstay of soviet propaganda. What of course he will suppress is anything that threatens him politically. There has been ethnic cleaning in this part of the world before. This isn’t it.

Can you name me a war that wouldn’t be classed as ethnic cleansing based upon your criteria?

 

[rlayt]

Yes and one of Putin’s excuses for the invasion is that Ukraine did not treat Russians well. And yet they intermarried, went to school with, shared Ukraine. And they defend each other.

I think we will see accusations of national identity erasure in some form in an international court of some kind. Perhaps the UN. Call it whatever words you want.

Every war is not just about territory but about erasure.

 

[JaJa]

Look, he is doing a lot of terrible things but its not ethnic cleansing. The whole point is that Putin is not distinguishing between ethic/linguistic Russians and ethnic/linguistic Ukrainians. He is claiming they are ALL Russian Russians, Belarussian, Ukrainians. All Russians. So how can this possibly be ethnic cleansing? It absolutely does NOT meet the legal definition of ethnic cleansing which is to try to create an ethnically homogenous geographic area by either killing or deporting all of those who are in another ethnic group. That is NOT what Putin is trying to do. To make effective arguments you have to understand whats going on.

 

[MaryClare]

But Ukraine is not a monoculture either. Tell me what is Ukrainian culture? It’s incredibly varied. Places like Lyiv have belong to Soviet Union, Poland and Austria in last 120 years! The western part of Ukraine looks, feels, sounds and acts completely differently from the east. Then you have the Black Sea coast which has a different culture again, more similar to its coastal neighbours