Russia-Ukraine War: Effects on Gymn World

[Sanzhirovka]

But the fact still also remains that Ukraine is not a Western style democracy and many in the West fail to understand that.

Interesting that you added that. Of course, it’s not a Western-style democracy. What country is historically regarded as establishing Western-style democracy? One might think of France, but thank the gods countries don’t try that route these days.

And the only issue I have with saying Ukraine is not a Western-style democracy is that so many people say that without providing any context. And so people unfamiliar with what I guess you could call the continuum of democracy, just lump Ukraine in together with places like Russia which are full blown autocracies.

Ordinary Ukrainians absolutely want to become a Western-style demoracy. But how do you achieve that when the ruling class was old Soviet apparatchiks for the first 15 years of independence since 1991? How do you establish a Western-style democracy when corrupt politicians bought up huge swatchs of the mass media? Where pro-Russian politicians own entire TV channels? How do you beat that? It’s simply not easy.

In Ukraine, it took the Orange Revolution as really the first step. But at least that step was taken.

And then, when Russia tried to take it away in 2013 via Yanukovych, it took 2013-14 to keep the country out of Russian’s grip. And obviously, much much more remains to be done on the path towards democracy.

So, please, when you say “Ukraine is not a Western-style democracy” please remember the context. Hopefully, you or anyone else will include the context.

That said, I’m really not interested in contributing any more to this thread. It’s honestly not even about Ukraine and gymnastics anymore. It’s one person belittling Ukraine at every turn while trying to play the role of dispassionate / objective onlooker.

Propaganda is always garnished with some or even a lot of truth. But even if it is unconscious, it’s still propaganda.

 

[JaJa]

And so people unfamiliar with what I guess you could call the continuum of democracy, just lump Ukraine in together with places like Russia which are full blown autocracies.

I am absolutely not doing that. I think I made that very clear

 

[MaryClare]

The problem is, Ukrainian propaganda is almost as bad as Russian propaganda. It’s always been extremely difficult to get reliable information from Ukrainian sources.

 

[JaJa]

But how do you achieve that when the ruling class was old Soviet apparatchiks for the first 15 years of independence since 1991? How do you establish a Western-style democracy when corrupt politicians bought up huge swatchs of the mass media? Where pro-Russian politicians own entire TV channels? How do you beat that? It’s simply not easy.

Agreed. I am not blaming the Ukrainian people. Simply stating a fact.

 

[Sanzhirovka]

There you go again…bald faced lies and “both sides are the same” BS. Whatevs…

Good night ))

 

[MaryClare]

For the sake of clarity. You are not a Ukrainian citizen and you don’t live there? Correct?

It’s like Joe Biden pontificating on Irish politics

 

[JaJa]

So, please, when you say “Ukraine is not a Western-style democracy” please remember the context. Hopefully, you or anyone else will include the context.

Thank you. I think this is a helpful reminder. But when I say this I am addressing the folks I know in the U.S. who really just do not understand that this is not pure evil v.s. pure democratic light and purity. Also, frankly, the Ukrainian government has been pretty brutal to anyone with any pro Russian inclination since 2014. And there is more than a hint of xenophobia and racism in that country. Having said this, I am 100% on Ukraine’s side in this – 100%. And I am ashamed of my country for not implementing far more devaststating economic sanctions and for not sending them every damn thing that flies to help support their defense,

 

[rlayt]

USA is by no means perfect. And I don’t think our form of government and society is at all ideal. Nor it it right for every culture. Like makam said justice is bought and paid for by the wealthy. We are not all equal. But I would never ever trade it for most countries. ESPECIALLY NOT RUSSIA. Or any country that would penalize people for speaking their mind.

Ukraine would be on a journey towards a more free society and more prosperity if not for Putin. Now it looks like the end of their world. Nothing justifies that. Nothing.

 

[MaryClare]

You’d have to be North Korea before you’d want what we have in Russia. But what I think people in the West don’t appreciate (and it’s the same when dealing with Middle Eastern countries) is that we have no tradition of democracy. Zero. Absolutely none. As I mentioned previously, unless we have spent time abroad, none of us have ever lived under democracy. For people my age, Putin has been in power since we were kids. For my grandparents generation, they spent most of their adult lives in the Soviet era, with grandparents who were born in imperial Russia.

 

[Doug1233]

“both sides are the same” BS

This is the Russian narrative. It’s full of whataboutism. It’s impossible to have a debate about anything because it’s always “well what about what Great Britain did in the 1970’s towards X country…”

Pointless.

 

[MaryClare]

Some of us are able to see that the world is not made up of good countries and bad countries.

 

[JaJa]

You’d have to be North Korea before you’d want what we have in Russia. But what I think people in the West don’t appreciate (and it’s the same when dealing with Middle Eastern countries) is that we have no tradition of democracy. Zero. Absolutely none. As I mentioned previously, unless we have spent time abroad, none of us have ever lived under democracy. For people my age, Putin has been in power since we were kids. For my grandparents generation, they spent most of their adult lives in the Soviet era, with grandparents who were born in imperial Russia.

All correct. I understand this completely. I also understand that many people in the West do not. (Just as an aside, it’s also true about the Middle East, except for Israel)

 

[FrolovasDoubleLayout]

Some of us are able to see that the world is not made up of good countries and bad countries.

Just like some of us are good RUS and others need to be spit out like flies.

To quote Sanzhirovka, “Whateves…”

 

[JDB]

I’ve come to the conclusion banning Belarus from competitions was unfair. Russia went through two cycles of flagrant rule violations at the Olympics followed by invading Ukraine. Banning Russia was appropriate because this is getting ridiculous. But Belarus doesn’t have the same pattern of absurd behavior.

 

[MaryClare]

Belarus has behaved badly in a different way. Remember in Tokyo they tried to bundle a female athlete onto a plane back to Minsk after she tried to make a sexual misconduct allegation against a high ranking government official. She had to claim asylum in Poland and her family back in Belarus had to literally race the security services to the border.

 

[MaryClare]

What is this supposed to mean? Need to be spit out like flies?

 

[FrolovasDoubleLayout]

You’re in RUS - check out the Putin propaganda. I think he said that you were either a good and patriotic RUS or you’re like and insect that gets in the mouth and needs to be spit out.

 

[MaryClare]

I have no idea, as I try to avoid listening as much as possible. But given your explanation, I still don’t understand why you’ve said it. In response to what?

 

[rlayt]

Putin says he’s going to cleanse Russian society. Cleansed of westernized Russians and traitors. They will be spit out like flies that flew into Russia’s mouth.

Putin and the 'self-cleansing' speech which has seen him compared to Hitler: Traitors must be spat out like mosquitos from the mouth

Russian president Vladimir Putin has made one of his strongest speeches since the war in Ukraine began at the end of February.

amp.marca.com

 

[MaryClare]

Putin threatening those who oppose him is nothing new. We have seen he is even willing to have them killed on foreign soil. Perhaps the west woke up to it, but nothing in that speech is different to what we have heard here for years.