Russia-Ukraine War: Effects on Gymn World

[MaryClare]

@JaJa @ArnoldRimmer

It is NOT the case that it’s only pro Russia parties that have been banned. Yes, some are openly Kremlin backed. Others are not, and are not even thought of as pro Russia. The quotes are straight out of the post Soviet autocrat manual

MSN

 

[Doug1233]

Party politics doesn’t really matter when Russia is bombing your hospitals and schools and stealing half your territory.

 

[MaryClare]

Sure. But he isn’t calling for a political coalition, he’s banning his opponents and making threats. Which is oh, exactly what Putin does

 

[rlayt]

So? He’s in a war-time footing! It’s a false equivalence to compare him to Putin. That is batshit crazy.

 

[MaryClare]

Not just Putin, but nearly every leader of former Soviet nations does this. No, he’s not Emomali Rahman but he’s not just another centre liberal European politician.

 

[JaJa]

It is absolutely the case. These are the parties that were banned temporarily: Opposition Platform - For Life, Shariy Party, Nashi, Opposition Bloc, Left Opposition, Union of Left Forces, State, Progressive Socialist Party of Ukraine, Socialist Party of Ukraine, Socialists Party, and Volodymyr Saldo Bloc… They are all pro Russian, anti-NATO, anti-EU with the possible exception of Socialist Party of Ukraine, Socialists Party, and Volodymyr Saldo Blocwhich which are just too wishy washy to be trusted. It makes perfect sense that Zelensky banned them – he is in the middle of an existential war. Ukraine can NOT deal with civil unrest or instability now. Martial Law exists for situations like this. This is in NO way a demonstration of Ukraine’s anti democratic policies. Sorry. try again.

 

[JaJa]

Not just Putin, but nearly every leader of former Soviet nations does this. No, he’s not Emomali Rahman but he’s not just another centre liberal European politician.

You are being ridiculous. You clearly need to take the current context – an all out war where Putin is bombing Ukraine into smithereens into account for pete sake. Moreover, it is critical that Zelensky survive this. He is the very reason that Ukraine has garnered the level of support it has garnered and he is the inspiration for the Ukrainians risking their life all day every day fighting the invasion. There is NO QUESTION that he is numero uno on Putin’s hit list. Unfriendly pro Russian people within Ukraine have to be controlled right now. And those people and those parties exist for sure.

 

[JaJa]

Again, I agree that Ukraine , while better than places like Tajikistan (thank you for acknowledging that much) is not a Western style democracy. But it is better than most of the former Soviet Union countries and Zelensky was better than ANY of his predecessors along those lines.

 

[MaryClare]

It was the supposedly pro Russian Ukrainians who tipped him off about Putin’s snipers. There doesn’t appear to have been any need to ban other political parties and if I were in Ukraine I’d be worried that he has mentally cracked

 

[JaJa]

Look, it goes practically without saying that there are people trying to find and get to and kill Zelensky. So do not even try to deny this. And of course there was good reason to temporarily ban those parties and in spite of the great (truly unimaginable) pressure Zelensky is under there is NO evidence he is having any sort of mental breakdown. Although leaders who were in his position before have had temporary mental crises – its almost a helpful way to cope during extreme times like this – Churchill for one, one of the Israeli generals (I forget which one) just before the 1967 war – I see no evidence of this with Zelensky.

 

[ArnoldRimmer]

No, it isn’t. Because Putin doesn’t do it whilst being invaded. The two situations are incomparable.

 

[JaJa]

MC – when you are right I say so. But you are SO off base here it isn’t funny.

 

[Sanzhirovka]

I sincerely hope that casual readers here are not going to take comments made in this thread at face value.

For all the talk about propaganda, I hope it is becoming clear that no-one is free of its influence.

In my opinion, it would be best to seek out other, maybe even Ukrainian sources, for a different take on both the current situation and Ukrainian politics and history.

As for the current state of Ukraine’s politics and democracy, I do hope people will look at the progress Ukraine has made and the direction the people are really, really fighting to go, despite leagues of corrupt politicians. I would hope that the Orange Revolution of 2004 which was basically a popular uprising against a corrupt system trying to fix the presidential vote, and many other political battles would show that while Ukraine is far from perfect, it is in fact moving towards Western liberal democracy. No-one should expect that to happen overnight.And no-one is claiming it is close to happening. Of course a lot of vested interests still hold a lot of power. And much of that power they hold in Ukrainian media. But labelling Ukraine as “just like” a country that has significantly regressed since 1991 is simply not an argument one can make in good faith.

In the word’s of a former president of Ukraine “Украина — не Россия” Ukraine is not Russia. The mentalities are very, very different and by and large Russians fail to realize this (incluing Putin it would appear! ).

So, keep that dose of salt nearby when reading here.

 

[MaryClare]

Even before this war, I had my suspicions about him. I think that long term I’m likely to be proven right about him.

 

[JaJa]

I would hope that the Orange Revolution of 2004 which was basically a popular uprising against a corrupt system trying to fix the presidential vote, and many other political battles would show that while Ukraine is far from perfect, it is in fact moving towards Western liberal democracy.

This is true to a certain degree for sure. And as i posted above, Zelensky is probably the best President they have had in terms of leading Ukraine to some form of a Democracy. I think all of us who understand the situation over there agree to this. Heck . . .even MC noted that Ukraine is not Tajikistan. But the fact still also remains that Ukraine is not a Western style democracy, likely never will be, and many in the West fail to understand that.

 

[JaJa]

Even before this war, I had my suspicions about him. I think that long term I’m likely to be proven right about him.

suspicions about him in terms of what? His mental stability? Cmon.

 

[MaryClare]

No. His politics and trustworthiness

 

[JaJa]

No. His politics and trustworthiness

well, I found him hard to read to be honest. But my inclination was to write him off as another corrupt, repressive leader in that part of the world. But I was having a hard time finding real evidence of that. But at this point whatever he was or was not before this – and remember he was not a politician, he almost fell into this role – , after Putin invaded he rose to the occasion in the most breathtaking display of heroism, courage and statesmanship the world has seen. Certainly in recent history.

 

[Doug1233]

It’s a false equivalence to compare him to Putin

This whole thread has been full of this.

 

[MaryClare]

Perhaps if you were able to approach the subject more objectively, there would be no need to draw any sort of comparisons