Russia-Ukraine War: Effects on Gymn World

[MaryClare]

Whilst the bravery and dignity that Kovtun and the other Ukrainian gymnasts have shown throughout the last few weeks is admirable, he is parroting his leader as much as any Russian gymnast is. It is straight from the copy book of the Ukrainian politicians. Quite simply, teenage gymnasts from any country tend not to know very much about politics. I don’t think we’d look so kindly on say an American gymnast calling the Chinese “zombies”. I can’t think that any Russians reading that would think oh, some kid who called us zombies thinks we should all go out and protest, so forget about the 15 years in jail, I think I’ll go and rally in the square.

“Close the skies” is the consistent message that Zelensky and other Ukrainian politicians try to pressure western leaders for. They don’t seem to understand (or perhaps just don’t care) that this would drag other countries into the war. Who is Ukraine expecting to police a no fly zone and shoot down Russian aircraft for them? Polish? Americans?

 

[Sanzhirovka]

Oh for fuck’s sake. That’s your response?

Mods, can we rename this thread from “Ukraine, Russia and gymnastics” to “The View from Russia and why Russians can’t do anything about it”.

Holy hell. There are no words.

MC, you of all people here should absolutely not be talking about people being influenced by propaganda. Nearly every comment you post here is laced with it.

 

[MaryClare]

I am assuming you are not back in Ukraine, defending your homeland? Yet you seem to think that unless I am willing to risk going on the protest, I must be pro war? So I’m to risk jail time for a country you won’t take risks to defend?

My posts have hardly been “the view from the Kremlin”!

I do not support the war, however there are millions of Russians who do. Your anger is much better used trying to persuade them! I hope that your loved ones are safe.

Lara

 

[FrolovasDoubleLayout]

Quite simply, teenage gymnasts from any country tend not to know very much about politics.

Quite a statement to be made especially when the reigning OG AA champion is speaking out about the things she still endures. At this point after reading your remarks about the Averinas maybe being informed and consenting but Listunova and Urazova not, and Kovtun being a puppet of the state, I feel sorry for you, not because of the situation you allow yourself to be placed in, but because you seem, at least in my mind, are just as guilty as the other marionettes.

 

[MaryClare]

Guilty of what? I’ve consistently condemned my country’s leader, what he is doing in Ukraine and how he gaslights the people into believing what he says.

I access Western news and social media and send the information to my friends here. This type of activity is illegal here, but I feel that as a dual national I am in a safer position to do so and that I should use that privilege as best I can.

 

[Sanzhirovka]

I am not currently in Ukraine. I don’t have citizenship yet and I don’t have military experience. We are collecting and sending medical aid to Ukraine, helping refugees find their relatives, helping them find homes and food and getting their children in school. We are involved in collecting money for the Red Cross and Unicef for Ukraine. We are trying to find ways to combat the human trafficking. Doing what we can and none of it is enough.

Furthermore, I never said you were pro-war. And I don’t think you personally should go to a protest as your Britishness would probably undemine it. I do think Russians in general should risk jail time yes. But not risk jail time for Ukraine, risk jail time to make Russia a better place.

My previous post was a reaction to your reaction to the story about Kovtun. Your immediate reaction was that he is a puppet. It was not anything about how he might be suffering or anyhing else to do with Ukraine really. but you felt it necessary to accuse him of being a puppet. That’s honestly not a good look.

And the majority of your posts in this thread are about how dangerous it is to protest in Russia. We get it. We heard you the first time.

And while you access Western media and share that with your friends, you never say what you expect your Russian friends to do with that information. What are they supposed to do? Sit at home and mope? What good is it to spread that information in Russia? What do you want to accomplish by sharing it?

Last, I’m not saying you are under Putin’s current propaganda; I’m saying you are heavily influenced by centuries of Great Russian propaganda.

 

[FrolovasDoubleLayout]

Guilty of what?

I will take back the word guilty, as it was the word that came to mind in the moment of my reply. As I said, you allow yourself (and by extent, your husband) to remain in the country, for whatever personal and/or financial reasons. My point is that you make rationales constantly for the positions that others take ((at least how I interpret it). Do you really have the right to say why others take the stands that they do? The Averinas are consenting and knowledgable, the minors are minors and have no say, Kotvun is “parroting”. You are fortunate that you are in the situation that you are in, and that you have every right as a dual citizen to leave. I wonder if your position would change if things escalated and Moscow came under the same position that the residents of Ukraine find themselves in. In the end I can only say, that if you want to live in the den with bear, when there is no boulder blocking the entrance, then you must be willing to take what might happen.

 

[MaryClare]

My Britishness would undermine a protest but I am influenced by centuries of Russian propaganda? Surely it cannot be both.

If you’re Ukrainian how do you not have citizenship yet? Anyway they are accepting foreign nationals, no military experience required.

It’s nice that you want to make russia a better place, and think we should risk jail to do so, but it’s not your country.

 

[MaryClare]

What do you mean for whatever personal/financial reasons? It’s my home. That’s why I live here.
The fact I have the right to live elsewhere is irrelevant. Lots of people in Europe have the right to live in another country, either due to dual nationality or the EU.

Do you apply the same logic to people in Ukraine? Surely choosing to live next door to an aggressively expansionist country when you’re not in a military alliance is “living with the bear”? They would have nothing to complain about if they’d just gone and lived in a nice NATO country.

 

[MaryClare]

Here is some more from the pro war rally

• lots of people leaving after 30 mins
• state employees ordered to go
  

 

[Doug1233]

But we don’t. Many are against what’s happening for all sorts of reasons

Many do, and are not.

 

[RAFIKI]

I can’t find the twitter thread right now but there was a BBC journalist (surprising as I thought they’d halted operations from Russia because of the recent reporting law change) reporting that students were given the day off lectures if they went to a “concert” and other attendees admitted being paid to go to the rally.

 

[Indy]

The Blind Landing podcast has a short episode up this week about Kovtun, including a written interview with him.

 

[MaryClare]

What do you mean “wanted his own”? Our media is almost entirely state controlled, he’s always had his own news stations. It’s rare for older people to watch hours of TV, it’s just not a cultural norm here.

Russia Today is a foreign language, light propaganda tool. It’s comparatively balanced compared with what our news stations broadcast. It’s not intended for Russian audiences and broadcasts almost exclusively in foreign languages. It’s a way of Russia exporting its narrative to the world, not an import of American media culture to Russia.

 

[MaryClare]

In Ukraine, Zelensky has banned 11 opposition parties, including the official opposition. I don’t blame Zelensky for defending his nation, it’s what a leader should do. But if naive folk in the west think it’s about freedom and democracy for ordinary Ukrainians, they are in for a shock

 

[JaJa]

In Ukraine, Zelensky has banned 11 opposition parties, including the official opposition. I don’t blame Zelensky for defending his nation, it’s what a leader should do. But if naive folk in the west think it’s about freedom and democracy for ordinary Ukrainians, they are in for a shock

Listen MC, while I agree with you that even before Russia’s invasion of Ukraine , Ukraine was in no way what we in the West understand as a democracy, this is NOT a sign of that. First of all, Ukraine is in the midst of a truly existential war, fighting for its life against Russian invasion. Second, they declared martial law which is a perfectly reasonable thing to do in the case of an extreme emergency like this. The U.S. declared martial law when the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor. Its a temporary emergency step while Ukraine has to put its every resource towards self defense right now, there is no time to deal with civil unrest or instability. Third, it is only the pro Russian political parties which have been banned under martial law in Ukraine.

 

[makam]

And even if they were the commiest communists who ever did commie (insert preferred government system as desired), they were within their own borders, doing things for their own citizens, and in no way needing to be invaded by a foreign power. Like, were they bombing Russian cities on the sly? Even if they had joined NATO, NATO generally does shit. Some peacekeeping troops now and then. With all the satellites we can track every cow fart in any country, so NATO being on Russia’s borders only matters if one’s ego is tied to their pwrcieved international influence and is liable to get all butthurt about it.

Creating some story about Nazis to justify invading a peaceful neighbor (at least “weapons of mass destruction” is a tried and sometimes true excuse) is some straight up bullshit cowardice. Next time, just own it (same goes for the US next time they try to police the world). “We wanted country x’s resources and in fact, feel entitled to them, and them doing things without us hurt our fee-fees”

 

[MaryClare]

Well, they are trying to make it appeal to a western audience, so of course they’ll copy what works in the west.

Propaganda here is far cleverer and nuanced because it’s embedded in everything. It’s very difficult to go anywhere or do anything without being exposed to it. Here it’s about playing the long game. People ask me how it’s possible that Russians genuinely believe they are fighting Nazis in Ukraine. Well, if you saw what Russian schools and social history teaches about Russia’s role in WW2, it’s very easy to see how people believe there are Nazis in Ukraine.

Propaganda isn’t something Putin just decided to do a few weeks ago, it’s a way of life here and unless we have spent time abroad, we have never lived under democratic leaders. Maybe for a few years, Yeltsin was drunk enough to have gone a bit democratic, but that’s it.

 

[ArnoldRimmer]

Banning political parties affiliated to the country currently invading you and massacring your civilians is not anti-democratic or anti-freedom. I’ve agreed with some things you’ve said on this thread, but that is just batshit.

 

[Doug1233]

In Ukraine, Zelensky has banned 11 opposition parties

When did he do this?