Russia-Ukraine War: Effects on Gymn World
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It’s not different. Basic asylum law is the same everywhere because it’s based on the 1951 Refugee Convention. You can not apply for asylum unless you are in the country where you are seeking asylum. Outside the country you have to go thru refugee resettlement. Then there is Humanitarian Protection, or what we call Temporary Protected Status. People fleeing wars who do not qualify for asylum use those laws. It’s not as good as asylum tho because it’s typically temporary and does not lead to citizenship.
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Doug1233
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Is this the category that AOC wants to make permanent since it was used by a lot of people in central America who fled those hurricanes and tornadoes and they don’t want to/can’t go back? I think I’ve heard her talk about TPS.
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ArnoldRimmer
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Honestly, yes you can. There’s a country guidance case called KB Syria saying as much:
https://tribunalsdecisions.service.gov.uk/utiac/2012-ukut-426
b. In the context of the extremely high level of human rights abuses currently occurring in Syria, a regime which appears increasingly concerned to crush any sign of resistance, it is likely that a failed asylum seeker or forced returnee would, in general, on arrival face a real risk of arrest and detention and of serious mistreatment during that detention as a result of imputed political opinion. That is sufficient to qualify for refugee protection.
This was considered to apply even to people with no known political affiliation. I should probably have mentioned the case last night but this is what happens when I post after a couple of drinks. People can and do use this case to make the argument that they’re at risk of persecution due to imputed political opinion on return, even with no known political affiliation or other risk factors such as deserting from military service. The bar has only been not an evident Assad supporter- if you had done nothing political other than flee and claim asylum you were a refugee due to imputed political opinion. That’s how it’s been interpreted.
Which is really why the case I mentioned was so surprising, it’s a departure from the way the UK has been deciding Syrian claims since this case. Generally the bigger problem for Syrians has been waiting years for a decision.
I very much agree with your points about politicisation and strategic considerations in asylum processes though. That’s the case here and it doesn’t remotely surprise me to hear that it also goes on in the US.
@MaryClare the UK doesn’t take asylum applications submitted from outside the territory of the country, so there isn’t an equivalent provision to that here.
https://tribunalsdecisions.service.gov.uk/utiac/2012-ukut-426
b. In the context of the extremely high level of human rights abuses currently occurring in Syria, a regime which appears increasingly concerned to crush any sign of resistance, it is likely that a failed asylum seeker or forced returnee would, in general, on arrival face a real risk of arrest and detention and of serious mistreatment during that detention as a result of imputed political opinion. That is sufficient to qualify for refugee protection.
This was considered to apply even to people with no known political affiliation. I should probably have mentioned the case last night but this is what happens when I post after a couple of drinks. People can and do use this case to make the argument that they’re at risk of persecution due to imputed political opinion on return, even with no known political affiliation or other risk factors such as deserting from military service. The bar has only been not an evident Assad supporter- if you had done nothing political other than flee and claim asylum you were a refugee due to imputed political opinion. That’s how it’s been interpreted.
Which is really why the case I mentioned was so surprising, it’s a departure from the way the UK has been deciding Syrian claims since this case. Generally the bigger problem for Syrians has been waiting years for a decision.
I very much agree with your points about politicisation and strategic considerations in asylum processes though. That’s the case here and it doesn’t remotely surprise me to hear that it also goes on in the US.
@MaryClare the UK doesn’t take asylum applications submitted from outside the territory of the country, so there isn’t an equivalent provision to that here.
Look, you are just wrong, so let it go. You do not seem to understand this, either that or you just don’t bother to read the actual opinion –
Did you even bother to read the Opinion??? Or did you just pick out a single phrase at the top that seemed to support your position? You have to actually read the case and understand the fact pattern and understand the way the court based its decision.
The court stated upfront quite clearly, "The position might be otherwise in the case of someone who, notwithstanding a failed claim for asylum, would still be perceived on return to Syria as a supporter of the Assad regime.
"
You have to actually read the case. The appellant left Syria to avoid being arrested because he was at a demonstration demonstrating for regime change and the police broke it up. His cousins had been arrested. 15 of his friends were arrested and he left Syria just before the security police came to his house with an arrest warrant. After he left the country the security police went to his house several times looking for him to arrest him. They detained his brothers .
THATS THE BASIS OF HIS POLITICAL OPINION IMPUTED POLITICAL OPINION. You do NOT need to be a known member of a political party or have a “known political affiliation” but of course you need to have shown some real basis for having an opposition political opinion or for being perceived as having that opinion (or being an oopressed minority like a kurd as the court pointed out) and therefore a basis for fear of future persecution. Being at a demonstration against the regime and having the police arrest your family members and have a warrant for you and come to arrest you does it. Clearly
That he would then be flagged upon his return to Syria because he applied for Asylum adds to the likelihood that he would be picked up police and arrested of course. And it might add to the likelihood of his being persecuted. But that is not the basis of the political opinion claim. I always add , when arguing these cases, that the asylum applicants leaving the country and returning (even without the asylum application) would be a flag for the police to notice him But you also have to have some basis for the claim .
He was denied asylum below because the judge did not believe his testimony and did not believe his claim about his political activities: Because in many asylum cases there is no actual evidence the credibility of the respondent’s testimony is crucial and a judicial finding of lack of credibility often is the reason for the denial
“But Judge Canavan was “unable to accept that the authorities came to know about his political activities and approached his family in the way that he says.” Indeed, she made an overall negative credibility finding:”
“n the absence of any further evidence to support his claim I find that serious doubts are raised about the credibility of the core aspects of the appellant’s account. His account of his political activities has been vague and his actions in obtaining a passport and applying for entry clearance do not indicate that he was of any interest to the authorities at the time. His subsequent actions in returning to Syria and then travelling back to Lebanon, and his behaviour on arrival in the UK, are not consistent with someone who has a well-founded fear of persecution. His account of the authorities showing interest in his family after he left the country has been confused and contradictory and I found his evidence on this issue to be unclear and unreliable. I conclude that, in the absence of any further evidence, I am unable to accept the core aspects of the appellant’s account even on the low standard of proof. The appellant has failed to establish the overall credibility of his account. His actions show that his main motivation for coming to the UK appears to have been to learn English and find work”
Look, again, you are just wrong and frankly either do not understand the law or did not bother to read the case. So stop this. Please. You are like a dog with a bone. But its just silly and indicative of nothing but your lack of understanding of this case and the law.
Show me a case where the court says “yes, we find the appellant had no credibility was clearly not telling the truth about his political activities and basis for his claim but hey he applied for asylum so we have to grant his asylum” Because that is the argument you are tryying to make and its silly.
Did you even bother to read the Opinion??? Or did you just pick out a single phrase at the top that seemed to support your position? You have to actually read the case and understand the fact pattern and understand the way the court based its decision.
The court stated upfront quite clearly, "The position might be otherwise in the case of someone who, notwithstanding a failed claim for asylum, would still be perceived on return to Syria as a supporter of the Assad regime.
"
You have to actually read the case. The appellant left Syria to avoid being arrested because he was at a demonstration demonstrating for regime change and the police broke it up. His cousins had been arrested. 15 of his friends were arrested and he left Syria just before the security police came to his house with an arrest warrant. After he left the country the security police went to his house several times looking for him to arrest him. They detained his brothers .
THATS THE BASIS OF HIS POLITICAL OPINION IMPUTED POLITICAL OPINION. You do NOT need to be a known member of a political party or have a “known political affiliation” but of course you need to have shown some real basis for having an opposition political opinion or for being perceived as having that opinion (or being an oopressed minority like a kurd as the court pointed out) and therefore a basis for fear of future persecution. Being at a demonstration against the regime and having the police arrest your family members and have a warrant for you and come to arrest you does it. Clearly
That he would then be flagged upon his return to Syria because he applied for Asylum adds to the likelihood that he would be picked up police and arrested of course. And it might add to the likelihood of his being persecuted. But that is not the basis of the political opinion claim. I always add , when arguing these cases, that the asylum applicants leaving the country and returning (even without the asylum application) would be a flag for the police to notice him But you also have to have some basis for the claim .
He was denied asylum below because the judge did not believe his testimony and did not believe his claim about his political activities: Because in many asylum cases there is no actual evidence the credibility of the respondent’s testimony is crucial and a judicial finding of lack of credibility often is the reason for the denial
“But Judge Canavan was “unable to accept that the authorities came to know about his political activities and approached his family in the way that he says.” Indeed, she made an overall negative credibility finding:”
“n the absence of any further evidence to support his claim I find that serious doubts are raised about the credibility of the core aspects of the appellant’s account. His account of his political activities has been vague and his actions in obtaining a passport and applying for entry clearance do not indicate that he was of any interest to the authorities at the time. His subsequent actions in returning to Syria and then travelling back to Lebanon, and his behaviour on arrival in the UK, are not consistent with someone who has a well-founded fear of persecution. His account of the authorities showing interest in his family after he left the country has been confused and contradictory and I found his evidence on this issue to be unclear and unreliable. I conclude that, in the absence of any further evidence, I am unable to accept the core aspects of the appellant’s account even on the low standard of proof. The appellant has failed to establish the overall credibility of his account. His actions show that his main motivation for coming to the UK appears to have been to learn English and find work”
Look, again, you are just wrong and frankly either do not understand the law or did not bother to read the case. So stop this. Please. You are like a dog with a bone. But its just silly and indicative of nothing but your lack of understanding of this case and the law.
Show me a case where the court says “yes, we find the appellant had no credibility was clearly not telling the truth about his political activities and basis for his claim but hey he applied for asylum so we have to grant his asylum” Because that is the argument you are tryying to make and its silly.
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Some footage from St Petersburg suggesting that international brands have not actually pulled out of Russia. Likely due to being franchise operated. Now that I think about it, I’m sure I saw people with drinks from Starbucks when I was at the ice rink yesterday. I’ll have a look tomorrow
ArnoldRimmer
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This is an odd response.
The case I linked to is a Country Guidance case. The way this works in the UK is that they’re used to establish principles that then are supposed to be followed by the Home Office in deciding other asylum claims, unless they can show some reason why the principle shouldn’t apply. The part that I quoted is the important part because it’s why this is a Country Guidance case. This is why Syrians who don’t have a political profile have been able to get asylum in the UK, It’s considered that they’d be at risk of being treated as politically opposed to the regime and persecuted on return, due to their actions. That’s how the system has been working here, until the now withdrawn refusal discussed earlier.
I am not asking you if you think this is true, I’m telling you that it is. I’ve practiced asylum law in the UK and you haven’t. Why do you want to argue with me about this? I’d never wade in and tell you that you didn’t understand how asylum law in the US works because it looks different to how it is here. That wouldn’t be my lane.
The case I linked to is a Country Guidance case. The way this works in the UK is that they’re used to establish principles that then are supposed to be followed by the Home Office in deciding other asylum claims, unless they can show some reason why the principle shouldn’t apply. The part that I quoted is the important part because it’s why this is a Country Guidance case. This is why Syrians who don’t have a political profile have been able to get asylum in the UK, It’s considered that they’d be at risk of being treated as politically opposed to the regime and persecuted on return, due to their actions. That’s how the system has been working here, until the now withdrawn refusal discussed earlier.
I am not asking you if you think this is true, I’m telling you that it is. I’ve practiced asylum law in the UK and you haven’t. Why do you want to argue with me about this? I’d never wade in and tell you that you didn’t understand how asylum law in the US works because it looks different to how it is here. That wouldn’t be my lane.
Because your position makes absolutely no sense, and was not based on what the Opinion you posted said. You clearly just either did not read or or did not understand it – which is odd because its not like it was that complicated.
While certain aspects of Asylum practice differ from country to country and even judicial interpretations of the law – they change from court to court even within one country – the basic law does not change because it is all based on the 1951 Refugee Convention. Thats why in appelllate briefs its fine to cite foreign cases.
The basis of an Asylum claim always has to be present. It was in this case because the guy had very clear and compelling reason to fear future persecution based on political opinion because he had been see at a demonstration against the regime and the police issued warrants for his arrest as a result of his having been at that demonstration – and perhaps because of his membership in a psg (member of a family who are known political oppositionists" – although the case did not refer to this. Thats the basis of his claim.
But apart from having this history the court will take every aspect of “well founded fear of future persecution” into account. Thats where the fact of his having made an asylum claim comes into play. It would increase the likelihood of his persecution. But it does not form the basis of his claim. Nor could it. Its just not a part of the Convention
I have no clue how you could represent asylum applicants when you lack the most basic understanding of this law.
Sorry. Its somewhat embarassing.
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ArnoldRimmer
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Yes, clearly you having done some pro bono asylum work in a different jurisdiction makes you infinitely qualified to assess how the concepts of imputed political opinion and risk on return are applied to a particular category of refugee, in a place where you’ve never practiced the law, and do not understand the system. Despite you being today years old when you found out what Country Guidance cases were. Notions, as they say.
Also to any mods reading, if this is going to continue would it be ok to hive it off into a separate thread please? I wasn’t expecting this kind of response or I wouldn’t have posted it here, and it feels increasingly inappropriate on a thread about such a tragic situation.
Also to any mods reading, if this is going to continue would it be ok to hive it off into a separate thread please? I wasn’t expecting this kind of response or I wouldn’t have posted it here, and it feels increasingly inappropriate on a thread about such a tragic situation.
ArnoldRimmer
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Likewise.
Here it is.
https://commonslibrary.parliament.u...lum-seekers-and-refugees-are-there-in-the-uk/
The U.K has various programs (like “Vulnerable Persons Resettlement Scheme”) through which they accept refugees which meet the same legal basis that asylum seekers meet, the only difference is that these refugee resettlement claims come from people OUTSIDE the U.K. And UNHCR does the initial determination of whether the people meet the legal standard and then each country (including the U.K.) decides who they want to take.
So, the process is different, but the legal standard they have to meet the same. So . . . . . .yes, anyone outside the U.K. has to make this same refugees resettlement application through UNHCR. People may call it asylum but its refugee resettlement. And since these folks are not within the borders of the country in which they are seeking refugee status, the country is under no obligation to take them. Its voluntary.
https://commonslibrary.parliament.u...lum-seekers-and-refugees-are-there-in-the-uk/
The U.K has various programs (like “Vulnerable Persons Resettlement Scheme”) through which they accept refugees which meet the same legal basis that asylum seekers meet, the only difference is that these refugee resettlement claims come from people OUTSIDE the U.K. And UNHCR does the initial determination of whether the people meet the legal standard and then each country (including the U.K.) decides who they want to take.
So, the process is different, but the legal standard they have to meet the same. So . . . . . .yes, anyone outside the U.K. has to make this same refugees resettlement application through UNHCR. People may call it asylum but its refugee resettlement. And since these folks are not within the borders of the country in which they are seeking refugee status, the country is under no obligation to take them. Its voluntary.
well . . . .as long as you have Starbucks . . . . . . . . .
Just kidding.
But on a serious level, hang in there MC. Hopefully this will be over soon, although I am sure Russia will be dealing with the consequences for some time to come.
Is there any point in going to Starbucks if you can’t post it on Instagram?!
This is one of the reasons why sanctions won’t work- so much of the economic effects cannot just be reversed. It’s not like Putin stops tomorrow, sanctions are lifted and everything goes back to how it was. So where is the incentive for him. And with the longer it goes on, the more people adapt. Most people have been issued with new MIR payment cards and online payments are working again. Things like the post Olympic figure skating tour is going ahead.
Western brands and services “cancelling” Russia is just a massive I told you so for Putin. There is a huge renewed interest in supporting Russian businesses now
This is one of the reasons why sanctions won’t work- so much of the economic effects cannot just be reversed. It’s not like Putin stops tomorrow, sanctions are lifted and everything goes back to how it was. So where is the incentive for him. And with the longer it goes on, the more people adapt. Most people have been issued with new MIR payment cards and online payments are working again. Things like the post Olympic figure skating tour is going ahead.
Western brands and services “cancelling” Russia is just a massive I told you so for Putin. There is a huge renewed interest in supporting Russian businesses now
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Sport here is a very big deal, always has been. Sports funding is secondary only to military funding. You just need to look at the huge financial rewards given to athletes after the Olympics.
Figure skating and rhythmic gymnasts is awash with money. Artistic gymnastics less so, but still a lot more money han say 10 years ago.
Figure skating and rhythmic gymnasts is awash with money. Artistic gymnastics less so, but still a lot more money han say 10 years ago.
Sanzhirovka
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- Mar 3, 2021
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Meanwhile in Ukraine:
Let’s remember Daria Lyska:
And this is her hometown of Kharkiv now:
www.aljazeera.com
This video, which many have probably seen, is from my hometown:
Ask me if I give one single fuck how much sanctions and economic strain hurt the Russian gymnastics programme. Our coaches and athletes are getting hate posts from Russian coaches and officials they have known for sometimes over 40 years. It’s disgusting.
And this, this is worth reading:
Let’s remember Daria Lyska:
And this is her hometown of Kharkiv now:
Scenes of destruction, misery in Kharkiv after Russian bombings
Ukraine’s second-largest city has been devastated, with civilians left homeless taking refuge in underground stations.
This video, which many have probably seen, is from my hometown:
Ask me if I give one single fuck how much sanctions and economic strain hurt the Russian gymnastics programme. Our coaches and athletes are getting hate posts from Russian coaches and officials they have known for sometimes over 40 years. It’s disgusting.
And this, this is worth reading:
It is not surprising unfortunately that those involved in Russia with gymnastics are very pro government. Sure, almost everyone in sport is at some level, a beneficiary of the state but gymnastics especially has very close links to the government/Putin through Slava Fetisov and Alisher Usmanov.
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