Russia-Ukraine War: Effects on Gymn World

[rlayt]

It looks like Europe, the people who stand to lose the most, are going to continue buying Russian oil. Only 3% of our crude comes from Russia. The greedy petroleum companies will pretend the higher prices are due to the war.

 

[MaryClare]

I don’t think he is trying to destroy Ukrainian culture or heritage at all. Russia and Ukraine have so much shared history and culture. Far more so than any other 2 ex Soviet states. Putin called Ukraine a jewel we were robbed of [when Soviet Union broke up] Literally millions of us in Russia have close family links to Ukraine.

As for Ukraine being democratic. It isn’t. Not by any western definition of the word. Is it more democratic than Russia? Yes. But it’s an extremely corrupt place.

 

[MaryClare]

It doesn’t matter where your gas comes from, this crisis will push prices up everywhere, even in countries where the supply is mostly generated domestically

 

[rlayt]

Wouldn’t you think Putin would care about their shared heritage when it comes to buildings, landmarks and culture? Even though they have much difference politically there’s shared history and culture and family. He’s blowing away a shared rich history.

 

[rlayt]

Sorry MC but part of that sounds like propaganda excuses. If you listen to propaganda some of it seeps into you even if you were educated elsewhere.

 

[JaJa]

As for Ukraine being democratic. It isn’t. Not by any western definition of the word. Is it more democratic than Russia? Yes. But it’s an extremely corrupt place.

Totally correct. When things like this happen we start seeing things in black and white. Ukraine had plenty of issues. But right now the fact is they are total victims of Putin and what is happening is a horrifying humanitarian crisis that I personally think the West should put a stop too.

 

[JaJa]

It doesn’t matter where your gas comes from, this crisis will push prices up everywhere, even in countries where the supply is mostly generated domestically

also totally correct

 

[MaryClare]

But propaganda is everywhere. Zelensky has a fantastic propaganda machine too. We all consume propaganda from all sides. Indeed one of the key themes of Ukrainian propaganda is that it’s a normal, democratic, European country. It isn’t, not even close

 

[MaryClare]

Corruption index. Not sure how many in the west would expect them so close together

 

[rlayt]

As adults we have to think critically. Question things. Ask ourselves if our gut feelings are blinding us. Do our gut feelings come from something real or did we absorb propaganda designed to make us feel that way.

Westerners may be pissed about higher prices but a whole factory in Russia walked out over not being paid. I think Russia will hurt a lot more.

Where does Russia fall on the corruption scale? Obviously from the state of the military and how far it has fallen a lot of money for equipment and supplies went into the pockets of someone.

 

[Ginger]

“Indeed one of the key themes of Ukrainian propaganda is that it’s a normal, democratic, European country. It isn’t, not even close”

A democratic country isn’t born from one day to another. It’s a process. And Ukraine was on the right path to get there in my opinion. Putin is in power for more than 20 years. Lukashenko, since 1994. Zelensky was elected just recently and serving his first presidential term, and he is 6th Ukrainian president since 1991.
As for the corruption index… maybe the close ties to Russia was/is the main problem and reason why corruption is so bad in Ukraine.

 

[MaryClare]

I agree, but that isn’t the point I was making. The Ukrainian propaganda campaign has lead many people to believe that Ukraine is a democratic country, which it really isn’t.

 

[Ginger]

MC, I appreciate these discussions, I really do.
As for the propaganda - I am well aware of it. Everyone does that and it always makes me mad when I catch someone (Republican or Democrat, as I am naturalized US citizen and voter) exaggerating or lying.

But, in case of President Zelensky, I cut him some slack. He is in desperate situation. And I really don’t care if Ukraine is a ‘democratic enough’ country, per our ‘western’ standards. Ukraine is a sovereign country, full stop.

 

[JaJa]

I do not know how much those Corruption Indexes really mean though. They look at things other than political corruption, like black market activity and regulation. Take it with a grain of salt. But look, there is no question that Ukraine is not really democratic by our standards, but I think Zelensky was really trying to make some strides in that direction. In any event, it really has nothing to do with the current situation. NONE of those former Soviet Union countries are democratic by our standards and Ukraine is by far not the worst of them. And the people have the right to live in their own sovereign country without Putin bombing them into the stone age.

 

[JaJa]

But, in case of President Zelensky, I cut him some slack. He is in desperate situation. And I really don’t care if Ukraine is a ‘democratic enough’ country, per our ‘western’ standards. Ukraine is a sovereign country, full stop.

exactly the point I made. And Zelensky can use any tools he needs to use right now. The guy is a total hero. He is trying to save his country and he is putting his own life on the line for it. I do not know when in history we have seen a leader with this level of courage.

 

[Doug1233]

They’ll end up killing him.

 

[Doug1233]

See you next Tuesday, Sveta…

Never liked u anyway, tbh.

 

[irichluck21]

They’ll end up killing him.

Now that Zelensky has stood up to Putin, that is absolutely what Putin wants and will get over time, sadly.
You can’t stand up to someone like Putin and live too long, due to his ego and holding grudges.
Zelensky will end up a martyr though and that will probably be Putin’s undoing.

 

[Denn]

My point is that it would be a much smaller % of the population than the % of Russians who support the Putin-ordered genocide in Ukraine.

You know these percentages? Please share!

 

[Doug1233]

You know these percentages? Please share!

:roll_eyes: