Proposed (drastic) changes in MAG CoP for 2025-2028

[GymBeauty]

Who actually agrees with this statement?

Anyone who is in touch with current culture. Not to mention anyone who understands finance.

Look at the amount of revenue generated from shows headlined by male skaters (hundreds of millions) vs the amount of revenue generated by current robotic male gymnastics (almost nothing).

 

[MaryClare]

That’s my point, many counties don’t have a macho attitude towards men participating artistic sports.

 

[MaryClare]

Look at the amount of revenue generated from shows headlined by male skaters (hundreds of millions) vs the amount of revenue generated by current robotic male gymnastics (almost nothing).

Again, this is rubbish.

Male gymnasts in Japan and Russia vastly out earn their female colleagues. Possibly in China too, I’m not sure about that one.

 

[makam]

I’m just sayin’, if the men competed shirtless that would negate a LOT of the “sissy” shit that is prevalent in the US culture surrounding gymnastics. (Macho) Guys like having muscles, having muscles is cool, gymnasts have muscles, thus, gymnasts are cool through the transitive property. Seems like the “problem” solves itself, and I don’t think the women viewers would complain much either…

I’m trying to imagine Brody Malone putting together an artistic floor routine and failing completely but I could see a gymnast who maybe can’t get the huge tumbles being interested in using dance moves to boost their score.

 

[dweiss324]

I was never a dancer, but I did show choir and theater as an outlet for performance. When we were younger, we used to have to dance in our community gymnastics shows. It was fine, but as a high schooler I would have hated it. Resented it. I can appreciate flair, presentation, poise, all that stuff. Personal style. I liked being one of few to do a split and a y scale Let’s encourage that. But to require choreography to me seems like a big miss. No thank you, there were other outlets. I don’t know a single guy who would have signed up for gymnastics if floor were to require choreography.

 

[MaryClare]

Yep. As I said, I’d love to see men’s floor return to how it was in the 90s. But actual choreo. No way.

 

[blake]

In my experience in the '00/'10s, it was fairly common for our coaches to call us sissies/fairies/ladies/twinkletoes to “motivate” us to work harder or when someone had a mental block, and the homophobia/misogyny of my coaches/teammates was worse than what I experienced in school, likely as a reaction to the negative stereotypes about men’s gymnastics in the US.

When I was younger, I liked copying the choreography of the girls at my gym and doing beam, and I had a couple teammates who continued doing this well into their college careers. The things I’ve heard coaches/other athletes say about them were super demoralizing, ie I’ve been out for almost a decade and still haven’t had the courage to tell my coach/teammates. A few of my teammates even refused to polish up their corner transitions on floor because they thought it was too girly.

TikTok style dances are popular among gen z, but the type of dancing we see in WAG/figure skating would probably appeal to very few MAG here in the US. All that to say, I doubt introducing choreography to floor would increase participation here in the US, especially not now with the number of NCAA programs dwindling and NT members struggling to make a living while training.

 

[Passion]

Male gymnasts in Japan and Russia vastly out earn their female colleagues.

But do they out earn Hanyu?

 

[GymBeauty]

That’s my point, many counties don’t have a macho attitude towards men participating artistic sports.

Huh? You said outside of America artistic sport for men is shunned, when ALL across the world, it has been proven to be popular.

Male gymnasts in Japan and Russia vastly out earn their female colleagues.

In Japan it’s because the male gymnasts have been far more successful competitively. Where are you getting these numbers about Russia? If the state program pays their males more, that is a separate issue anyway from the possibility of MAG becoming more popular in Russia if floor routines included music. Again, look at the male skating stars Russia has produced, who have definitely made more money than male Russian gymnasts.

Valeri Liukin did choreography in professional gymnastics shows decades ago. The Russian attitude about male gymnasts performing seems to be more open than you’re making it out to be.

I don’t know a single guy who would have signed up for gymnastics if floor were to require choreography.

That’s very presumptuous, and also speaks to an older generation IMO. Even without any floor music, I remember guys when I was a kid not wanting to do gymnastics because many local classes were co-ed and it would be “sissy” for guys to be doing “a girls sport”. While some of these attitudes still remain, there is definitely more acceptance now.

Anyway, how many guys are signing up for gymnastics? And how many people are watching MAG? Clearly there is a problem with involvement in the sport, and it needs to be improved.

If certain crowds already think male gymnastics is “not manly enough”, then their opinions are irrelevant to begin with. They aren’t people who would be getting involved with the sport anyway. Making MAG floor routines more artistic opens the sport up to entire other demographic of interested people, while losing relatively few people.

TikTok style dances are popular among gen z, but the type of dancing we see in WAG/figure skating would probably appeal to very few MAG here in the US.

Artistry is entirely personal, nobody said MAG floor routines can’t be “TikTok” style.

The “dancing” in MAG doesn’t need to be flowery, if the individual doesn’t want it to be. Hitting strong poses and doing gymnastics moves in time with the music is the main thing needed. It’s entirely possible to have a rigid, conservative style that works with the music, a “masculine” piece of music. A style like breakdancing, which is also considered very masculine, is also something male gymnasts could do.

 

[MaryClare]

Where are you getting these numbers about Russia? If the state program pays their males more, that is a separate issue anyway from the possibility of MAG becoming more popular in Russia if floor routines included music. Again, look at the male skating stars Russia has produced, who have definitely made more money than male Russian gymnasts.

I live in Russia and work as a dance teacher at a sports school where I routinely work with pre teen boys. The artistic boys follow the exact same dance curriculum as the acro boys, where significantly more dance ability is required.

Khorkina was lucky if she made a third of what Nemov was making and the earning divide has got more noticeable amongst the current generation. Nagornyy, Belyavskyy and Dalaloyan are all extremely well off. None of the females are. Even Mustafina and Melnikova compare poorly. The national team salaries are the same. The culture here is very different to the west (I grew up and trained in England) when it comes to male participation in dance and artistic sports. Men’s gymnastics actually has quite a tough guy image.

 

[MaryClare]

The “dancing” in MAG doesn’t need to be flowery, if the individual doesn’t want it to be. Hitting strong poses and doing gymnastics moves in time with the music is the main thing needed. It’s entirely possible to have a rigid, conservative style that works with the music, a “masculine” piece of music. A style like breakdancing, which is also considered very masculine, is also something male gymnasts could do

Lol, you’re acting like male gymnasts doing that type of dance is a novel thing you’ve just come up with. Have a look at the men’s pair and men’s group routines from the acrobatic world championships. Men dancing with men.

 

[GymBeauty]

Lol, you’re acting like male gymnasts doing that type of dance is a novel thing you’ve just come up with. Have a look at the men’s pair and men’s group routines from the acrobatic world championships. Men dancing with men.

Pair routines has nothing to do with a solo MAG routine with music, which is indeed novel seeing as it’s never been tried yet in competitive MAG.

Regarding male gymnasts in Russia making more than females, that isn’t relevant. There’s nothing to say that those gymnasts wouldn’t be making the same or more if MAG had floor music. Again, the top Russian male skaters, who came into prominence when that sport valued artistry more, have made more than Russian gymnasts. How do you explain this?

I think WAG in Russia is not popular probably because it’s seen as an inferior thing to ballet and ice skating, two activities that have been ingrained in Russian culture.

 

[MaryClare]

Ice skating is a more lucrative sport, worldwide. You cannot compare gymnastics with skating. Male skaters in Russia aren’t making much money these days, they always had to go abroad to make decent money but the teenage girls are making enough that they are comfortably retiring for life before they are 21. There’s a massive drop off of male figure skaters from teenage years. It used to work out well because they usually went into ice dance or pairs. That isn’t happening now, they are going to hockey because that’s where the money is. For the first time I’m hearing skating coaches moan about lack of boys taking up the sport.

In terms of popularity amongst the general public here, this is how I would rank artistic Olympic sports

The earnings of male gymnasts is very relevant. You are attempting to argue that MAG needs to drastically change to survive. But there are plenty of countries where it’s a popular enough sport that top level athletes make a very good living from it.

WAG is popular here, but it does struggle against RG and skating because they are seen as more aspirational, middle class sports. Artistic gymnastics, men and women’s are very much working class, blue collar sports. Which is probably quite a strange thing for people in the west to get their heads around, since high level gymnastics training there is very expensive.

1. Women’s skating
2. Rhythmic gymnastics (I haven’t separated individual and group as it’s unnecessary here)
3. Men’s gymnastics
4. Ice Dance/pair skating (the general public don’t consider them separate)
5. Women’s gymnastics
6. Group swimming
7. Men’s skating
8. Pairs swimming
   I’ve not included trampoline as an artistic sport, it’s not popular anyway.

 

[GymBeauty]

You are attempting to argue that MAG needs to drastically change to survive. But there are plenty of countries where it’s a popular enough sport that top level athletes make a very good living from it.

There’s absolutely not “plenty” of countries were MAG makes a good living.

Male skaters in Russia aren’t making much money these days, they always had to go abroad to make decent money

There are big ice skating shows in Russia; ofc you need to go abroad to make MORE money though, since that’s the only way to reach a global audience.

Current male skaters are less popular than Yagudin/Plushenko from the previous generation, first of all because they have been less successful competitively, and second of all because the scoring system in skating has stifled artistry. The skaters have far less freedom to do what they want and the performances are more robotic. Instead of being trained to actually perform for the audience and come up with something creative, they are now trained to do convoluted footwork and spins that have no real artistic value. Plus the quad jump obsession, with the scoring system giving huge points for poorly executed jumps.

 

[arabiandoublefront]

Unpopular opinion, but I don’t think gymnastics or figure skating is that artistic anymore. Fans of figure skating bemoan about gymnastics and fans of gymnastics bemoan about figure skating. Both sports’ scoring systems stifle artistry. That said, I’m probably one of the few people who don’t care, because I’ve always watched both sports for the difficulty, and that’s probably why I have such a huge problem with women’s floor in gymnastics (besides the outliers like Simone and Jade) and the exclusion of the Russians in figure skating (women and pairs, in particular).

 

[MaryClare]

There are big ice skating shows in Russia

These are not particularly lucrative for the athletes involved. Same with Nemov’s gymnastics show.

 

[Beamer]

I am for things that encourage sticking. Sticking was one of the best parts of gymnastics and it’s rare now instead of necessary.

Odd that the stick bonus would be in the D-Score, but I guess that’s a good way to make sure it’s applied. And it’s all the same score in the end.

 

[MaryClare]

Stick bonus being in the D score opens up the potential to appeal if you haven’t been given the stick. Which I don’t think is a good thing at all

 

[Doug1233]

Yeah I don’t think they’ve thought that one through.

Is that a USAG thing, too?

 

[makam]

They could make the non-stick penalty higher. If a little step was .3 instead of .1, there would be greater focus on it (though really, are there any gymnasts other than maybe Simone on floor who have such a score lead that they would be like “Nah, I’m not going to even try to stick it.”

And I’ll be honest, I’d rather see a foot movement than the windmilling arms.