MyKayla Skinner Olympic participation

[YurchenkoLoop]

Rich, these are all very valid considerations that I think ought to be made, even if USA isn’t vulnerable in qualifications.

A part of me feels there are simply too many variables to have any hard and fast rules determining the best team. Ultimately it seems the majority of the educated gymternet believed McCallum was the best choice for the 4th. With any predetermined selection criteria, the best-fitting gymnast might not be selected. Tough decisions have to be made and I think the correct one was here. I don’t think we fans are owed much explanation at all, but the gymnasts and coaches ought to be given plenty of information and equal consideration. It has been pretty clear that Forster is a Skinner fan, given the trips(plural?) to Desert Lights and all and I don’t think this was quite fair to other bubble gymnasts who could’ve benefitted from some extra special attention

 

[Denn]

I don’t think anyone was “going after” Jade Carey, but I think that both USAG and the Gymnaverse judges underscored her due to bias based on the past.

I hope the Olympic panels score her with fresher, less biased eyes. To be sure, she’s not a complete gymnast, and her dance on floor is still really bad, but I am confident that most people underscored many of her split positions, and that alone could have made a difference of a point AA.

 

[irichluck21]

Your last sentence:

It has been pretty clear that Forster is a Skinner fan, given the trips(plural?) to Desert Lights and all and I don’t think this was quite fair to other bubble gymnasts who could’ve benefitted from some extra special attention.

Is pretty accurate, given what Shilese Jones has posted to social media.

 

[ArnoldRimmer]

I’m not sure Shilese qualifies as a bubble gymnast, talented as she undoubtedly is. The comparator group for Skinner is the likes of McCallum, McCusker, Wong and Eaker.

Which isn’t to say Tom necessarily took the right approach with Shilese either. This is a very unusual year and casting a wide net is sensible. Seems to me she could be at least in the selection pool for worlds with proper cultivation, if she wants it.

 

[crdubb17]

Shilese was definitely a bubble gymnast IMO. Had she not bombed beam both days at nationals she would’ve finished 4th, and had she not effed up bars both days at trials she would’ve finished 5th. Obviously have to take into account the mistakes of the other girls, but she would’ve honestly been right in the conversation had she had some consistency. I wonder if anything would’ve changed had Tom come in to her gym and been realistic about what she needed to do to be a factor (I.e. addressing routine construction/concern about her consistency in the past).

 

[Doug1233]

But “will deliver the highest team total” … how is Tom supposed to measure that?

Why do you assume that Skinner is on the team that would “deliver the highest team total”?

This assumes that Suni, Simone and Jordan cover 11/12 TF routines. Tom might not want to use Suni on floor. He might not want to use Jordan on beam or bars. He might want to adjust the line ups depending on who makes AA or EF, and having Grace simply makes it easier to do that.

Tom might have spoken to Perskaia and have received a more nuanced viewpoint on the judging than simply the Trials spreadsheets said. I’d trust her opinion over the 5 judges on the floor. She’s Cat 1.

Tom might be wanting to ensure the highest team score in the case of injury. Tom might have more insight into injuries on the team than we do.

There’s so many assumptions built into this “highest team score” scenario that to simple assume that failure to choose Skinner for the Team is an example of Tom being bad at his job is literally a fucking stupid opinion. Sorry not sorry.

Criticise him for his media delivery, sure. But Tom could have picked any 2 out of Grace, Wong, DiCello, Skinner and Riley, in any combination, and you could twist or fabricate a rationale for it that would have been entirely reasonable.

 

[makam]

So I noticed in the thread on the day that you took great offense to whoever posted that. I’m not sure where you are from or how old you are, but where I am from and in my generation, “going Tonya Harding” or “having to pull a Tonya on a competitor” was a frequent tongue-in-cheek joke. A way of saying “remove your competition through non-permanent means” but in shorthand. Obviously not a serious thought (no one thinks Mykayla or Leanne or whoever has a pipe in their gymbag), clearly not factually accurate (Tonya herself didn’t physically do anything to Nancy), just a joke.

 

[rue_des_plantes]

For sure, maximizing prelims shouldn’t be a priority, though it does come up in simulations they run when selecting teams, per MLT. At least, they did that with Marta, and I haven’t heard they’ve sacked it. They see what happens to the team totals and their differences if you change the TF format to prelims/4-4-3, 4-4-4, etc. to account for things like injuries, inconsistency, and coverage issues.

Such simulations would appear to reflect McCallum is safer and flatter her in ways the AA totals alone from Trials do not. In person, we got the sense that Skinner knew team was over when she was fifth behind Lee, Chiles, and McCallum, even though USAG scores contain enough argument to put her on the team anyway.

 

[RAFIKI]

Tom might have spoken to Perskaia and have received a more nuanced viewpoint on the judging than simply the Trials spreadsheets said. I’d trust her opinion over the 5 judges on the floor. She’s Cat 1.

Per NBC so citation needed…in 2016 they said the selection committee were getting a second set of scores. I’d love to know if those differed substantially from official trials scores. Wouldn’t be surprised if they were still doing this.

 

[Doug1233]

I’m sure.

The fact that Gymcastic are whining about 2 tenths, spread over two days, 8 routines and 5 judges (some of whom were LITERALLY pulled from the audience because they didn’t have enough on the floor) tells you everything you need to know.

Garbage in, garbage out.

 

[ArnoldRimmer]

It isn’t an assumption. It’s using the scores that USAG had, the ones they said they’d utilise. There is obviously an issue there with them being replicated internationally, but even if Tom has the sense to realise things like the beam won’t stand up, and it’s not like he’s shown much evidence of being that switched on before, the issue doesn’t arise with Skinner’s vaults. They were pretty realistically scored, and we all know full well that international D panels on that event bunch.

The other examples you give don’t relate to maximising the team score, they are other reasons why the US might want to do something else. They’re sensible and legitimate, but they don’t do anything to refute the point that there’s a particular combination yielding the highest total score. You’re confusing assumption that the highest scoring team would be the best choice with assumption that there is a highest scoring team. They aren’t the same thing at all.

And the bit about not choosing Skinner making Tom bad at his job is a strawman. No doubt there are people who hold this view, but your response to them doesn’t belong in a post to me that doesn’t argue that. The issue here is Tom, with a previous record of poor understanding of the code and qualification rules, having presided over a selection process where two of the athletes concerned have said they didn’t understand what they needed to do. This is a big fuckoff problem, not one that can be separated from the decision made. It means that athlete criticism of him is legitimate. There is no getting round this.

 

[ArnoldRimmer]

Well if we’re giving Shilese consistency, we need to do the same for everyone else in the discussion. Whichever criteria you want to use, she was clearly less likely to make the team than Skinner and those who were taken as alternates.

The point about the need for skilled guidance is 100% though. It looks like Tom ignored talent that could’ve been better cultivated. It’s one thing doing that in an ordinary year, the US usually has enough depth that the lazy option is ok. But this is a unique situation. Of course the Olympics are the priority, but he should also be giving at least some thought to 2021 and 2022 worlds.

 

[KristyJ]

I’ve felt for years that Shilese has the talent and ability to be at the top level, but that her routine construction and consistency have let her down year after year. If she had dialed in her floor landings and not botched bars and beam at trials she would’ve been in the discussion, and it could be argued that better skill choices could’ve gotten her there. It’s likely a coaching issue, but it also could have and arguably should have been addressed by national team staff. The same is true for other athletes that have come to nationals with non-ideal routine construction, including the whole GAGE team, Skinner, and… actually quite a number of athletes, now that I think about it. I like that athletes go for big and unique skills, but coaches need to understand the implications on the code and score when considering if and how to include them. If the coaches don’t, the NT staff should be stepping in and providing that education.

 

[irichluck21]

Absolutely. Shilese was definitely Olympic level on VT and UB. But she gave away too much on beam and floor even in just automatic deductions that she never really had a chance.
Yes, it is Christian who should have made changes, but a good HPD should have seen more potential and helped to give feedback to make her routines more consistent and executed better.

 

[rue_des_plantes]

I mean, there’s no point in having Perskaia on the selection committee if she’s not giving these scores some perspective and being heavily involved, if not in charge of, judge education and routine composition feedback. She’s Cat 1 and on the FIG WTC, ffs. Utilize her.

Shilese is valid if Forster and Co. didn’t give her specific feedback and tell her what it would take to improve, and I buy that. At the same time, Christian seems egotistical and stubborn. The talent and difficulty are there, but she literally cannot break 55 more than once a season. I’m not sure what else the HPC is supposed to say after a certain point, besides, “change your routines and/or your training and mental preparation, or water down; whatever you need to get her to hit.” That should have been obvious to Christian as well, so it seems more adults than not are failing her in the gym, sadly.

 

[ArnoldRimmer]

Shilese strikes me as the sort of talent that other programmes would probably try and nurture through necessity, but has fallen through the cracks in the US because hey, we’re going to win the team title without you anyway so why bother. It’s valid to feel frustrated at this.

 

[Doug1233]

Again, this is messaging (both internal and external).

Completely separate from Tom picking the best team.

I’m not sure why you say these issues cannot be separated?

I can make the best decision - and the fact I didnt tell you ahead of time, or after the fact, how, why or when - doesn’t reduce the “goodness” of the decision.

 

[ArnoldRimmer]

Because they can’t. Issues with the process don’t go away because the probably most sensible team was picked. If you think there’s no basis for criticism when it’s possible to justify the decision made as the best one, your bar is far too low.

When the NTC lacks understanding to the extent that Tom has told us he does, and when at least two of the group didn’t understand what was required of them, there is a problem and criticism is deserved.

 

[Doug1233]

You’re misunderstanding me. I’m not saying there should be no criticism about process. Or that ultimately picking the best team erases errors with the process.

I’m saying the actual DECISION shouldn’t be criticised. The team is fine.

But the gymternet seems to be confusing the two. Their argument is that BECAUSE Tom had an opaque shitty process, and gave an awful explanation for his team choice, that meant the team that he actually picked was the wrong team.

I’m not saying Tom shouldn’t be criticised. But those criticising him should make it clear what they are criticising him FOR.

And putting Grace in the 4th spot over MyKayla should not be one of them! But it seems like if Person X criticises Tom for Reason A, Person B sees that as a green light to disregard every decision Tom has ever made as trash for the USAG dumpster fire.

The lack of nuance is what bothers me.

These issues MUST be separated.

 

[ArnoldRimmer]

We come at this from totally different perspectives then, because I think the idea that it’s possible to hive these things off, separate the decision from the process and the way the athletes were treated, is entirely wrong.