Gymnast Social Media Megathread

[Doug1233]

unless they consider it “Insufficient complexity of movements” or think it doesn’t express the music properly

That’s an artistry deduction. Nothing to do with tumbling.

 

[Doug1233]

She definitely shouldn’t throw away the .2 dismount bonus

She wouldn’t, under the 2 pass routine I posted above.

 

[Yarotska]

Or you get this:

At least .2 in deductions and added pressure on the ankles? She’s had so many lower leg issues let’s just not lol. Just because the .2 looks nice on paper doesn’t mean it’s worth the trouble.

 

[GymBeauty]

That’s an artistry deduction. Nothing to do with tumbling.

Tumbling is part of the artistry of a program. Interpreting the music properly usually means speed and big flourishes are needed, which comes from an acro line.

What was Andrade’s FX dismount again?

Oh yeah, I forgot to add .2 for Andrade as well.

But that just means Suni loses the AA with either of her Floor performances. In the current code she would need the Double Tuck, and need to execute it without a big hop, in order to win.

At least .2 in deductions and added pressure on the ankles? She’s had so many lower leg issues let’s just not lol. Just because the .2 looks nice on paper doesn’t mean it’s worth the trouble.

“F” element with .2 deduction = .4 gained, which is .2 more than a C element with .1 deduction.

Suni knows what’s going on with her body better than others. If she feels good, then she’ll likely want to do full difficulty. The code is significantly different in regards to including the Double Tuck as compared to last year, both because of the bonus and because she can’t include another wolf turn.

 

[Doug1233]

But that just means Suni loses the AA with either of her Floor performances

You’re comparing two different Codes. Apples and Oranges. Not a fair comparison.

And in any event, the routine I proposed above has her getting the 0.2 DMT bonus anyway.

 

[Doug1233]

Tumbling is part of the artistry of a program. Interpreting the music properly usually means speed and big flourishes are needed, which comes from an acro line.

I am 99% sure this is wrong. But I’m willing to be proven otherwise.

 

[FrolovasDoubleLayout]

I am 99% sure this is wrong. But I’m willing to be proven otherwise.

I am 100% sure that you are correct. According to the FIG artistry checklist for FX:
Body Posture 0,1
Elongation 0,1
Feet not pointed/relaxed/turned in 0,1
Insufficient involvement of body parts 0,1
Poor expressive engagement of music 0,1-0,3
Disconnect 0,1
Insufficient complexity/creativity of movement 0,1
Poor corners 0,1
No low to mat 0,1
No music structure 0,1
Lack of ending synchro 0,1
Background music 0,1-0,3

As much as I would like to be able to deduct for progressive distribution, choice, etc. I cannot - it is NOT in rules.

 

[Doug1233]

Insufficient complexity/creativity of movement 0,1

I think @GymBeauty was trying to argue that uneven distribution of elements might fall within this category, on the basis that tumbling falls within the “movement” of the body parts.

 

[FrolovasDoubleLayout]

Okay - take THAT principle and send it to Donatella!

 

[Doug1233]

I have no problem with Lieke’s routine here, even though she only had 2 passes.



Although I may have preferred her to do one less spin and one more leap passage. But my issue wasn’t with 2 passes.

And with Suni - one of her lines would be a connection tumble.

 

[GymBeauty]

Not doing any tumbling in the last 60+ seconds of a routine can be called “insufficient complexity”. It especially could be called “Poor expressive engagement of the music” and “Background music (the exercise is connected to the music only partly)”.

If you are performing to Firebird, or whatever it is, and have no explosive flying movements to match the big crescendos of the music, then you are not expressing the music properly. It doesn’t even need to be something that big though, every piece of music with a suitable structure for competition (structure of the music being another composition requirement) has some kind of tension and release, which demands acro in order for the program to suitably interpret it.

And in any event, the routine I proposed above has her getting the 0.2 DMT bonus anyway.

Yeah but I don’t think it’s a good routine. Aside from artistic issue, the ring leap will likely be downgraded and .3 deducted. Most people can’t do that element, it’s actually harder than the switch ring, because of generating less force to get the legs up high enough. She can probably do a Popa fine enough, but these boring C elements aren’t going to make her world beater as compared to including Double Layout and Double Tuck (or w/e upgraded versions she might be able to do). She’s proven she can execute them well enough to be worth including and she will likely need the difficulty if she hopes to repeat as Olympic Champ.

All this said, the ideal thing would probably be to upgrade her 1.5 + front full to a 2.5 + front full and have a 3-pass routine. That combination might not be in the cards for her though. If she’s stuck with the 1.5 + front full, her options to boost the score would be moving the Double Layout to her 3rd pass (very questionable) or dismount with the Double Tuck.

 

[navyblue]

I feel like a 2.5 twist dismount is a good choice in this code. Less chest landing deduction potential, less risk to ankles, and less overall energy needed to get it around, compared to a double tuck. I always like how Nastia did choreography right out of the landing on her 2.5 to finish her routine/mask landing errors. Not saying that applies in this code, but I just think it could look nice on Suni too.

I just came up with 2.5 out of nowhere cuz it seems obvious Suni could do it, but did my due diligence too cuz I was bored… turns out she actually did compete it in her 2016 floor routine.

 

[Doug1233]

Aside from artistic issue, the ring leap will likely be downgraded and .3 deducted.

I don’t think a two pass routine creates an artistic issue if the dance is great.

Secondly, this was Suni. On a BEAM. In an Olympic final.

I’m pretty sure she can do a creditable Split to Ring on floor with a 0.1 deduction.

Finally, you’re ignoring that: (1) she had a lot of deductions on her double back, it was an awful pass for her; and (2) adding a double tuck would not make a mediocre routine “world class”. If anything, it would make it worse. More time twirling around on one foot in the corner. Feet, leg separation, chest and step deductions. And less time to dance. Suni is a gorgeous dancer. Ask 100 people if they’re rather see 8 more seconds of dance or a Double Tuck third pass and I’m pretty sure I know what most people would choose.

Not doing any tumbling in the last 60+ seconds of a routine can be called “insufficient complexity”.

I genuinely don’t think this is a thing.

 

[navyblue]

adding a double tuck would not make a mediocre routine “world class”. If anything, it would make it worse.

Yeah, I’ve sort of thought about how it’s ironic or unfortunate that after starting the routine with a gorgeous Silivas, Suni ended with a sorta dumpy double tuck. I mean, one could argue that the endurance necessary to end a routine with a double salto is worth rewarding, and I suppose that’s part of the impetus for this D dismount bonus? But I honestly think it wasn’t thought through fully on FX where the idea of a “dismount” is sorta nominal. The rationale is more clear on bars and beam where ending with a bang provides a wow factor for the audience, and where sticking the landing is more core to the overall impression of the routine. And oh yeah, that reminds me – give us a stick bonus! In the open-ended code, the difference between a landing with a step and a stone-cold stick needs to be more than a 1 tenth margin.

 

[dweiss324]

Not to mention didn’t the double tuck used to be a c? Whenever any elite uses a double tuck in their floor routine, I kind of roll my eyes.

 

[navyblue]

Yes it used to be a C, and although I don’t think a D rating is necessarily wrong, it was a little annoying how much more popular it became after the upgrade, as it’s often performed with terrible form and no attempt at pointed toes.

 

[Doug1233]

Not to mention didn’t the double tuck used to be a c?

Yep! We barely saw any in Beijing. I think one of the Russians did it.

 

[Yarotska]

Yep! We barely saw any in Beijing. I think one of the Russians did it.

And even that was an accident

 

[Doug1233]

Are you referring to the dished DLO that got credited as a Double Tuck?

I’m referring to another gymnast who definitely did one intentionally.

 

[GymBeauty]

this was Suni. On a BEAM. In an Olympic final. I’m pretty sure she can do a creditable Split to Ring on floor with a 0.1 deduction.

That Ring jump you linked is not great quality. Front leg too low, the arch of the head and shoulders is mediocre, and the back leg is a bit questionable if it got far enough up as the rules require. The leap version is the hardest to get credited, I don’t have confidence in Suni being able to do it just because it’s on Floor instead. That element should be reserved for a select few gymnasts.

she had a lot of deductions on her double back, it was an awful pass for her

She had .2 deduction in the 2019 performance, that’s not “a lot”. Perhaps the solo 2.5 twist can be explored as a dismount also though. It’s very unlikely she will want to drop the Double Layout or do it as the 3rd pass, so it’s inherently always going to be a question of some C dance element vs. an “F” rated acro element.

Yes it used to be a C, and although I don’t think a D rating is necessarily wrong, it was a little annoying how much more popular it became after the upgrade, as it’s often performed with terrible form and no attempt at pointed toes.

Double Tuck definitely needs to be D, it was extinct as a C element and tons of people still do a Double Pike instead, so it’s clearly not easy. The deductions make that apparent too. It’s really annoying how the score of every element isn’t made public, this is feedback the gymnasts need, and in general it’s needed to trust the judges. The sport really needs to get with the times and have the judges input everything into a computer.