Gymnast Social Media Megathread

[Doug1233]

few people get the disaster of -5 GOE either

I thought a -5 was mandatory if you fall? We see a lot of falls!

 

[navyblue]

(which is why the goal should be to make it extremely difficult for an element to receive the highest score possible; it’s unlikely there will be a significant difference in quality between two “perfect” elements at that point).

This is an interesting idea, and I think many folks resist it because it’s a big conceptual leap from ideas of “perfection” that are so important to (a perhaps overly nostalgic version of) gymnastics history. In the old paradigm, there was nothing remarkable for instance about judges handing out a dozen perfect 10s for a stuck yurchenko fulls. Judging has certainly moved closer to the GOE model y’all are describing (I know nothing about figure skating, just trying to follow the comparison) – because even though @KristyJ has characterized “+5 GOE style performances, and everything in between, the same thing” the standards for some gymnastics skills are so exacting that this idea of “adequate performance” is almost mostly hypothetical. For example, can we even imagine a double layout on floor, or an in-bar stalder full on bars, or switch ring leap on beam that receives 0 deduction and is not virtuosic? The technique required to stick a double layout with straight legs and a high chest position on landing means you had terrific speed and amplitude and control at once. The technique required to complete your in-bar full with pointed toes and end in a perfect handstand is exceptional. And the flexibility needed for a deduction-free Switch ring leap on beam means you are Anna Pavlova or Chinese.

I suppose another problem with a GOE approach is that in addition to defining a deduction-free skill, you need to add even more rules that define virtuosity, or you’ll risk introducing additional degrees of subjectivity. You would have to, for instance, decide whether a rhythmic style over-split in a leap is necessarily better than the extreme flexibility already required to reach 180 degrees mid-air. Or, is a board-straight Courtney McCool-style double layout on bars superior to one with a slight arch? Might be yet another can of worms.

 

[GymBeauty]

You would have to, for instance, decide whether a rhythmic style over-split in a leap is necessarily better than the flexibility already required to reach 180 degrees mid-air. Or, is a board-straight Courtney McCool-style double layout on bars superior to one with a slight arch?

Yes to the former, no to the latter.

A small bonus system in gymnastics would work well with the existing deduction system. For example, Gabby Douglas would get .1 bonus for doing one her massive 2012 era Piked Tkatchevs, but still lose .1 for the flexed feet.

I need to see these huge flighty releases being rewarded. Where are the Mckayla Maroney Giengers? Make them happen!

 

[KristyJ]

A GOE reduction is mandatory, but can be offset by other qualities of the element. A jump has excellent height and speed but the skater catches an edge at the last second of holding the landing and bum-slides across the ice? It probably won’t be that negative. What is mandatory is a separate -1 deduction for the program that is not part of the GOE.

 

[Doug1233]

What is mandatory is a separate -1 deduction for the program that is not part of the GOE.

This deduction is so minuscule when compared to the value of the element.

 

[GymBeauty]

The fall deduction is in addition to GOE reduction, that part of the system is fine. There’s not much difference between someone doing a horrible jump where they wretch out of the landing and put both hands down and barely stay on their feet, vs. what can be defined as a fall.

I’d like the gymnastics floor ruleset to have more separation there. Putting one hand down should not be considered a full fall.

 

[onodian]

This deduction is so minuscule when compared to the value of the element.

according to the actual muddaf-ing scores. I mean they’re scoring 200, and they deduct -1.0 for a fall. No wonder people go out and do FS they only ever managed in their wildest dreams

ETA: for a comparison, it’d be like taking 0.075 for a fall in UB, for example, using 15.0 as a reference super score

 

[KristyJ]

I agree, but people complained so hard about quadless programs potentially winning that they decided to do more to encourage the risk, a decision about which I have many thoughts. I should probably avoid my soapbox about that one for now, though.

 

[GymBeauty]

It also has to be considered how a figure skating Long Program is 4 minutes + 10 seconds (formerly 4:30 + 10 for the guys). That’s an entire AA gymnastics competition. We’ve seen Simone win the AA with 2 falls.

 

[KristyJ]

I personally don’t think a skate with two falls should win easily unless the level of competition is low or it’s a splatfest, but I know there are those who very much disagree.
Edit- by low I mean very low
Edit #2- as an example, I thought Karen Chen should’ve beat Trusova for bronze in the 2021 worlds. I know Trusova has quads, but she missed way too many jumps and her skating otherwise leaves much room for improvement.

 

[onodian]

Just to add a bit and get Kristy going, Hanyu FS 2016 is a disgrace, and that still only took him to 2nd cause fernandez delivered. Hanyu looked like he was about to burst into tears towards the end of that routine. That should have definitely bumped him off of the podium, otherwise I simply don’t understand why hold competitions anyways. Just have him and Fernandez go, or whoever the top ones are, and that’s that

 

[GymBeauty]

I personally don’t think a skate with two falls should win easily unless the level of competition is low or it’s a splatfest

Of course, yeah. The problem in figure skating is the PCS are not used as they should be. The favorites receive high scores regardless of big breaks in the performance or an uninspired performance or weak choreography.

 

[KristyJ]

When they implemented PCS alongside anonymous judging, and when PCS scores began to simply be similar across all categories, it became clear that PCS was really 6.0 in disguise. The concept has some good going for it, but the implementation has never been good and was probably doomed not to be by the anonymous judging.

 

[makam]

I loved looking at the spread in PCS for the 2014 Olympics. It was pretty obvious that the judges were all reading different books on how to apply PCS.

 

[Yarotska]

This deduction is so minuscule when compared to the value of the element.

It’s basically an insult to injury penalty.

For example, fully rotated quad toe with a fall
9.5 Base - 4.75 GOE (-5/-50% applied to 9.5) = 4.75
-1.0 Penalty = 3.75

Fully rotated triple toe with good takeoff & height and tight body position, but a step out
4.2 BV - 0.42 GOE (-1/-10%) = 3.78

So you can fully rotate a quad which takes so much energy, but the extra penalty effectively makes it worth less than an okay triple jump.

And if you go for the quad and underrotate, it’s even worse.

And falling also reduces PCS by 0.25 in each category. Which is another 1.25 down for men, 1.0 down for women.

The last men’s junior grand prix event was decided by 0.13. 211.14 to 211.01.

 

[rlayt]

 

[KristyJ]

Poor Shallon

 

[KristyJ]

I suppose it depends if you think a fall should be roughly equivalent to the next level down or worse than it. I do agree that underrotations make things worse. Honestly, I would rather an underrotated jump than one that is rotated but zambonis the ice, but certainly both is a big problem. I feel like the downgrade rules that treat a half-rotated revolution as worse than a normal jump of the lower value is odd though, but that’s a whole other subject (though applicable to both sports in a way).

 

[Doug1233]

Poor Shallon

What a horrible horrible thing to have happened to her.

 

[Hatsumomo]

Oh no. How awful. I know it’s not actually a lot, but it feels like gymnasts have been losing parents left and right.