FX EF INQUIRY (Jordan Chiles Stripped Of Bronze Medal/USAG launches appeal)

[phoenix7]

I think that it would be insane to complain about the time if they wouldn't have evidence that the American coach took more than 1 min. They would hire lawyers, spend money, make us hope than something can change, just for nothing? It would be madness.

They could easily have a reasonable suspicion - like one of the Romanian camp was watching Jordan's coaches until the minute was up and didn't see it happen. That wouldn't be hard evidence, and there would be room for error, but it would justify asking for the evidence in the circumstances.

 

[ruby]

Something I would like to add for good measure...

I was "lucky" enough to draw line on floor in a major final a couple of years ago. And, after managing to get through most of the competition without incidence, a gymnast managed to do what Sabrina did. Almost stepped out before a tumbling pass right in the corner. First of all there was frantic "communication" between me and the other judge - panicked looks and signalling who was going to make the call. I really wasn't sure - had she stepped out or not? I knew the results were going to be close - gold or silver - and I did not want to be wrong. Initially I wanted to take the .1 - after all they could make an inquiry but I ended up not taking it. The gymnast ended up winning by less than .1 and I can assure you I lived through the worst minutes of my life, thinking I had "given" her the gold by not taking the ND. In the end, I had been right - she had not stepped out. BUT - and that's what I'm trying to get across - if she had stepped out, the 2nd place gymnast could not have made an inquiry into her score. So after that I swore to myself to always take the ND - at that level the gymnasts/coaches must know to make the inquiry.

 

[irichluck21]

We just have to wait until the FIG ggives its report. Just a matter of being patient.

Just like the 2004 controversy, I am sure FIG will put something in place for OOB in the future, if anything to cover their you know what moving forward.

 

[heythere]

They could easily have a reasonable suspicion - like one of the Romanian camp was watching Jordan's coaches until the minute was up and didn't see it happen. That wouldn't be hard evidence, and there would be room for error, but it would justify asking for the evidence in the circumstances.

We will soon see the result. People here in Romania are pissed, they say it would be great if the Americans, Chinese and Russians would have their own "Do whatever it takes to win Olympics" while the rest of the world would participate in the controversial: "May the best win Olympics"

 

[ruby]

and for those wondering....an inquiry has to be filed verbally right after the score is published or at the very latest before the next score is shown. So that gives a gymnast a couple of minutes. UNLESS you are the last gymnast in a rotation - then it's a minute. My guess is that the Americans appealed verbally right away but it takes some time to do the paperwork so it seemed longer.

 

[Ginger]

"Now let's see how the referees will defend themselves in the floor final. That is, more precisely, the International Gymnastics Federation (n.r. - FIG). I think they have the minute when the American coach's appeal was registered, and the time when the athlete's exercise ended is easy to find out. So it will be seen if they fit within the regulation minute", said a source from within the TAS, for the previously cited publication."

Ummmm, no and I really hope it's not what the Romanian delegation on whoever filled the appeal to the CAS believes.

GYMeme on Twitter argued that the American coaches couldn't file an appeal because they were on the cameras (during broadcast) for the critical minute. Which is not true because cameras also showed Andrade during that minute, but this may be the source of the "they didn't file early enough" claim.
I rewatched and less than 2 minutes passed between the first (Jodan's) score being flashed and the second score appearing.

ETA: the citation/translation is from the second article @heythere posted.

 

[irichluck21]

I am going to have to go back and look at the CoP. But if all the gymnasts had 2 minutes to inquiry I don't understand the last gymnast only having 1 minute. It doesn;t seem logical. Especially for someone like Sanne who would script her beam D score out in her notebook.

 

[Hatsumomo]

We will soon see the result. People here in Romania are pissed, they say it would be great if the Americans, Chinese and Russians would have their own "Do whatever it takes to win Olympics" while the rest of the world would participate in the controversial: "May the best win Olympics"

Except the Americans didn't do anything beyond putting in an inquiry. Voinea's score and Jordan's inquiry acceptance are all on the judges, none of whom are American AFAIK. And if Mama Voinea's inquiry was on a skill and not the ND, that's on her.

 

[onodian]

How is two minutes for everyone else ok but the last gymnast only has one minute. How is that fair to the last gymnast?

That is explicitly in the technical regulations. My guess is they're trying to avoid exactly what happened with barbosu. However, even if that were true, I fail to see how they prove it since the minute applies to a verbal inquiry that has then to be confirmed 4 minutes later.

Sanne did her calculations before her score came out.

I still have to see a place where it says the coach has to inquire the ND. All the language in the technical regulations says you inquire about d-score, and you have a right for the elements and the line and time NDs to be checked.

Also, in the cases where a gymnast not only did not get the element but got downgrades (think Kara Eaker 2018 or Carey 2022), it looks like they went and re-evalued the whole exercise and not only a specific element. Which, if that is the case, then it would be onto them to check the NDs.

Regardless of which, these are all, I feel, somewhat procedural, "petty" arguments that we can absolutely have, but still, an athlete was demonstrably wrongly judged, and that's still the clearest case to me here.

 

[Seyonne]

Seems like the clock should start once the score is flashed. You can’t put in an inquiry before you know the score

 

[Ginger]

and for those wondering....an inquiry has to be filed verbally right after the score is published or at the very latest before the next score is shown. So that gives a gymnast a couple of minutes. UNLESS you are the last gymnast in a rotation - then it's a minute. My guess is that the Americans appealed verbally right away but it takes some time to do the paperwork so it seemed longer.

I believe it's one minute/two minutes to do it verbally and 4 minutes to submit paperwork.
And I guess Landis had the paperwork ready because ...well, Jordan's Gogean....

 

[phoenix7]

"Now let's see how the referees will defend themselves in the floor final. That is, more precisely, the International Gymnastics Federation (n.r. - FIG). I think they have the minute when the American coach's appeal was registered, and the time when the athlete's exercise ended is easy to find out. So it will be seen if they fit within the regulation minute", said a source from within the TAS, for the previously cited publication."

Ummmm, no and I really hope it's not what the Romanian delegation on whoever filled the appeal to the CAS believes.

GYMeme on Twitter argued that the American coaches couldn't file an appeal because they were on the cameras (during broadcast) for the critical minute. Which is not true because cameras also showed Andrade during that minute, but this may be the source of the "they didn't file early enough" claim.
I rewatched and less than 2 minutes passed between the first (Jodan's) score being flashed and the second score appearing.

ETA: the citation/translation is from the second article @heythere posted.

The people they are interviewing for those articles make lots of mistakes talking about gymnastics. FRG will have advised on the actual appeal, and they'll know it's one minute from score to verbal enquiry.

It looks as if the US got it in very fast indeed if the score changed in less than two minutes! They would need 90 seconds just to watch the routine, wouldn't they?

 

[ruby]

I believe it's one minute/two minutes to do it verbally and 4 minutes to submit paperwork.
And I guess Landis had the paperwork ready because ...well, Jordan's Gogean....

Where are you getting the 2 minutes?

It's stated clearly in the Technical Regulations, which can be downloaded by everyone. It's the same for all disciplines so it's not even specific to AG.

 

[heythere]

Except the Americans didn't do anything beyond putting in an inquiry. Voinea's score and Jordan's inquiry acceptance are all on the judges, none of whom are American AFAIK. And if Mama Voinea's inquiry was on a skill and not the ND, that's on her.

Izbasa gave an interview today in the Romanian press. I don't have time to search for it, it's late, i will go to sleep soon. Izbasa said that this situation reminds her of when she was a kid and the coaches told over and over that they are from Romania and the judges will penalize every little mistake that they do. And when the Americans, Russians, Chinese compete, they will close their eyes and ignore their small mistakes. So in order to win, you have to do a perfect exercise! This is the only way.

 

[Hatsumomo]

I think Romania benefited from the flag bonus just as much as the Russians, Americans, and Chinese did.

 

[heythere]

It's not a flag bonus, it's a power bonus. Power is power.

 

[phoenix7]

That is explicitly in the technical regulations. My guess is they're trying to avoid exactly what happened with barbosu. However, even if that were true, I fail to see how they prove it since the minute applies to a verbal inquiry that has then to be confirmed 4 minutes later.

Sanne did her calculations before her score came out.

I still have to see a place where it says the coach has to inquire the ND. All the language in the technical regulations says you inquire about d-score, and you have a right for the elements and the line and time NDs to be checked.

Also, in the cases where a gymnast not only did not get the element but got downgrades (think Kara Eaker 2018 or Carey 2022), it looks like they went and re-evalued the whole exercise and not only a specific element. Which, if that is the case, then it would be onto them to check the NDs.

Regardless of which, these are all, I feel, somewhat procedural, "petty" arguments that we can absolutely have, but still, an athlete was demonstrably wrongly judged, and that's still the clearest case to me here.

I have found a bit in the technical help desk (which is a PDF file ) saying coaches must ask the superior jury for a review of line and time deductions in writing before leaving the floor. It sounds as if that may not have happened.

Sorry - before the end of the rotation, whenever that is exactly. Page 3

https://www.gymnastics.sport/publicdir/rules/files/en_WAG%20Help%20Desk%202%C2%BAEdition%2015%20th%20cycle%20%E2%80%93%20January%202023.pdf

 

[Hatsumomo]

It's not a flag bonus, it's a power bonus. Power is power.

From Montreal to post-Beijing, Romania was one of the power federations. I'm not really buying this idea that Romania has been unfairly picked on, especially Izbasa's era. Steliana Nistor's vaults alone...

 

[MaryClare]

Yep. Administratively, Romania still holds a lot of power within WAG, despite ceasing to be a top nation 10 years ago.

 

[Ginger]

Where are you getting the 2 minutes?

It's stated clearly in the Technical Regulations, which can be downloaded by everyone. It's the same for all disciplines so it's not even specific to AG.

Two minutes for everyone but the last gymnast who only has one minute.
But in your post, you also stated:
"an inquiry has to be filed verbally right after the score is published or at the very latest before the next score is shown"
"before the next score is shown" would give everyone but the last athlete more than 3 minutes to file verbally.