FX EF INQUIRY (Jordan Chiles Stripped Of Bronze Medal/USAG launches appeal)

[cats]

I don’t think being in physical possession of someone else’s bronze medal would set this right.

Also, like, can the organizations that are in charge of running this sport get something right without the athletes having to step in and fix it, ever?

 

[Passion]

It is really difficult to say whether this is an FIG or Romania problem until we know exactly what Romania appealed. Did they inquire on the ND? Or was their inquiry into Sabrina's 0.3 drop in D score?

If Romania only found out about the oob issue after watching slo-mo replays after the event then they cannot appeal that with the benefit of hindsight.

It’s an FIG problem because the ND should have never existed to begin with.

How asinine is it to rip an Olympic medal away from a 17 year old and then claim its her country’s fault for not fixing the judges mistake for them with the proper paperwork. The FIG hired the judges, the FIG sat them off the floor, the FIG was in charge of the camera views, the FIG took the neutral deduction. Whatever excuse the FIG comes up with, it was their screw up that caused this catastrophe.

Voinea did her job, she performed a routine in the final that scored 5.8 in difficulty and 8.000 in execution for a 13.8. That places her ahead of the 4th place 13.766/13.7/13.666 whoever you want to say was 4th. 13.8 beats them all.

 

[Passion]

Well, without access to a time machine, what exactly is the right solution then? The problem already exists and the way the rules are written, the medalists are chosen. Unless you can prove nefarious doings and strip an athlete of their medal, you don’t take away someone's medal because of a clerical error. As far as I know, no sport anywhere does that if it isn't discovered/addressed immediately.

The best case scenario is to award her a second bronze, like onodian said. But she still deserved to be awarded the original bronze during the medal ceremony on Monday because that’s what she actually won. It’s a failure of the sport because none of this should have happened. The gymnasts should be able to trust that their routines will be judged correctly and fairly at the Olympics. It’s the FIG’s fault that they can’t.

 

[makam]

Wtf are you crazy?!

No, and I don't appreciate personal attacks.

There are hundreds of bronze medalists in the Olympics. Being the one who gave her medal to the person who would have won it except for an administrative error sets you apart. If that will help Jordan on whatever her post-Olympic plans are, she should consider it. She's already gotten the publicity of being on the medal stand, now she can get the publicity of being a good sport/team player/advocate for fairness.

 

[arabiandoublefront]

Another unfortunate part is that I think the WTC set this up to happen eventually by making rules about not pausing in the corners and having to directly go into a tumbling pass. There's no reason gymnasts should have to swing their leg around before running into a tumbling pass.

 

[Memphisgym]

Sports, specifically gymnastics, have always been subjective. Who you think was better, who I think was better, and who the judges think was better could be three different people and there could be reasonable explanations for all three.

There are policies in place about appeals. Follow the appeal policies that were in place the day of the competition, and if they should be different, change them for the future. Don't alter your appeal policies and apply them retroactively to appease the sense of entitlement of one particular gymnast or delegation at one particular event.

 

[Memphisgym]

(can we lock the other thread so all the conversation on this issue is happening in one place?)

 

[Sasha]

Sports, specifically gymnastics, have always been subjective. Who you think was better, who I think was better, and who the judges think was better could be three different people and there could be reasonable explanations for all three.

There are policies in place about appeals. Follow the appeal policies that were in place the day of the competition, and if they should be different, change them for the future. Don't alter your appeal policies and apply them retroactively to appease the sense of entitlement of one particular gymnast or delegation at one particular event.

Sports is subjective, but I don't think that an incorrect OOB call falls under subjectivity, it's a clear error.

 

[Passion]

Sports, specifically gymnastics, have always been subjective. Who you think was better, who I think was better, and who the judges think was better could be three different people and there could be reasonable explanations for all three.

There are policies in place about appeals. Follow the appeal policies that were in place the day of the competition, and if they should be different, change them for the future. Don't alter your appeal policies and apply them retroactively to appease the sense of entitlement of one particular gymnast or delegation at one particular event.

OOB is objective. You’re either over the line or you’re not. Just like racing is objective, you crossed the finish line first or you didn’t. That’s why it is written in the FIG rules that scores can be changed after being posted due to inquiry, time, or line issues.

We don’t know if the inquiry was handled correctly or not because the FIG didn’t provide any information. Romania is also appealing for the information to be released.

There’s also a policy that if you don’t step OOB you don’t get deducted for stepping OOB, but here we are. FIG broke their own rules.

 

[JaJa]

Sports is subjective, but I don't think that an incorrect OOB call falls under subjectivity, it's a clear error.

Right. Gymnastics is generally a subjective sport, and many aspects of it are specifically subjective. But OOB is clearly objective.

 

[Memphisgym]

Right. Gymnastics is generally a subjective sport, and many aspects of it are specifically subjective. But OOB is clearly objective.

And according to the rules in place on the day of competition, an OOB is also not reviewable.

 

[onodian]

This is the first line of the COP under "regulations for gymnasts":

The gymnast is guaranteed the right to: a) Have their performance judged correctly, fairly, and in accordance with the stipulations of the Code of Points. (bold mine)

That's all you need to know, frankly. Voinea was not judged in according to the stipulations of the COP and so her rights as an athlete have been neglected. Whether it explicitly says that an OOB is reviewable or not, I could not find in the COP, to be honest. I will say, NDs are the prerogative of the D-panel. They are to ensure they are applied.

I will add I also think Jordan giving up her medal would be the best case scenario now. But I also understand this is unlikely to happen. However, I find it a little difficult to read arguments against this finding resolution, cause, frankly, if this shit doesn't get solved, it will eventually hurt a gymnast you like. The sport will have enough subjective calls to fight on. This one isn't one.

 

[onodian]

Btw I was just watching Taekwondo this morning and when there is an inquiry, a multiview camera shows up FOR EVERYBODY TO SEE and they look at the particular moment from different angles to assess whether a competitor was hit or not and how.

Now I think this is too much for gymnastics, but please compare to the judges having to manage an appeal and not getting a replay from different perspectives (which, how else can you explain that Gogean and the OOB going so wrong)

 

[Ginger]

GYMeme on Twitter seems good source for news in this case.

 

[Ginger]

As much as I love Barbosu, not sure what they expect from this though.

 

[onodian]

The Barbosu thing is politics. I understand why would they, but yeah, nothing should come of that. And she would be my preferred bronze medallist, but there is no argument for her, as things stand.

 

[Laura722]

She seems to me as a quiet, shy person. I think she supported/was friend with Moceanu, yet she never spoke against Karolyis (who I believe helped her when she came to the US).
Of course I might be wrong, but that's my impression of her.

I've always felt Nadia doesn't speak of her past training with Bela and Martha because of how traumatic it all was.

 

[Memphisgym]

The Barbosu thing is politics. I understand why would they, but yeah, nothing should come of that. And she would be my preferred bronze medallist, but there is no argument for her, as things stand.

It's all politics. For the delegation it's really not about these two athletes, it's about a legacy program that's not living up to past glory and a refusal to accept disappointment with dignity.

 

[Lisaelaine80]

But if there was a mistake and Sabrina should have been in bronze, it wasn’t actually the first all Black athlete podium ?

Correct, and actual results should matter most since it’s a competition.

 

[Laura722]

If they think there was a backlash from Romania, wait for the backlash from Black America (and perhaps much of the Black diaspora) if they attempt to alter the first all Black podium. The backlash will be epic.

Backlash over an attempt at rectifying an unfair result? I don't think an all Black podium takes precedent over fairness.

I'm sorry Jordan got her individual medal this way, as she is a great gymnast. However, anyone with objective eyes can see that her floor was not the 3rd best floor routine this past Sunday. Giving out another bronze is the only fair way forward.