2022 World Gymnastics Championships WAG All Around Final (Thursday 11/03)

[RedBirdie]

It isn’t just twitter it is facebook too…many people saying Chiles was the rightful winner and Gadirova only won due to cheating for the home gymnast.
These are people that don’t understand D score or execution deductions or artistry checklist. They only know sticking the landings. They don’t understand that there were execution deductions for knees and feet and precision.
They don’t understand that Chiles tried a Gogean and was short so no credit and also now execution deductions.

And Chiles still had the second highest e-score in floor finals! It just so happened that the highest was Jess Gadirova, who also had .2 more in D score. Gadirova is a 2 time euro floor champ and an Olympic floor finalist. She has consistently in her senior career put up high e scores. In Tokyo EFs, she had the highest one. This isn’t something new. This isn’t “hometown” judging bonus. This is Jess Gadirova, when she hits, is the superior floor worker.

Uneducated fans mouthing off about shit they don’t understand piss me off.

 

[Doug1233]

People crying about Jess E Score and that “she had bad landings” seem to forget that the judges still took 1.8 off her E Score. They talk as if she got a 9.5!

 

[rlayt]

Our “experts” have some knowledge and can explain what they used and how they decided it. Not infallible but better than “ I LiKe joRdAn ThE bESt”

ETA Jordan was great but the scoring rules put her below Jess Gadirova.

 

[GymBeauty]

Plenty of people who understand the code feel Jessica was overscored. It was happening throughout Worlds, not just one incident, and by more than .1

They don’t understand that Chiles tried a Gogean and was short so no credit and also now execution deductions.

Gadirova was short on her Gogean too and shouldn’t have been credited, yet she was.

Her victory is fair, but the margin surely creates outrage, especially because the overscoring was so telegraphed. People were expecting this outcome by the time the floor final came and then it happened again, adding to the insult.

We need to talk about how unhelpful it is to completely dismiss the opinions of fans who “don’t understand the code.” Most spectators will never intimately understand the code, but they are the ones paying for events. If the sport is losing audience appeal and the results are completely disconnected from what an average viewer can perceive (with guidance from a commentator even), then perhaps that is a problem with the code, not with the audience.

Clearly people who DO understand the code have disagreements with it too. Just because the code exists in whatever form it’s in, that doesn’t mean it’s how gymnastics should be. It’s not just casual fans who are annoyed. Many highly experienced gymnasts and champions have expressed discontent.

 

[MaryClare]

Which gymnasts have expressed discontent at the current code?

 

[GymBeauty]

In public and off the top of my head: pretty much every commentator (and they are former top gymnasts), Heath, Kenzo, Simone, Konnor.

 

[MaryClare]

What have they said about it? What is their grievance?

 

[GymBeauty]

The scoring and/or overall routines do not align with how they think gymnastics should be judged and performed.

 

[rlayt]

But isn’t that true of everyone at some point? We’ve all felt that way at some point. But those are feelings not score. Unless there’s something in black and white it’s just feelings.

 

[ArnoldRimmer]

Most spectators will never intimately understand the code, but they are the ones paying for events. If the sport is losing audience appeal and the results are completely disconnected from what an average viewer can perceive (with guidance from a commentator even), then perhaps that is a problem with the code, not with the audience.

That would indeed be the case if the sport were losing audience appeal, but have we any reason to think it is? People complaining about results on social media doesn’t tell us anything about whether they’re representative of audiences who pay. In the specific case of Gadirova, based on the limited data we have of her competing not in an empty arena and with a non home crowd, she’s been enthusiastically received.

 

[MaryClare]

Exactly. Everyone involved in the sport at the top level is going to have grumbles with the code

 

[GymBeauty]

It’s more than just grumbles. There’s an outright dissatisfaction, a disconnect from reality between how things are scored vs what was actually performed, that is widely felt.

The other part of it is what’s allowed to be performed in the first place. One easy example is wolf turns. People especially hated seeing multiple wolf turns in a row. The most recent code addressed that problem (although wolf turns on floor are still debateably overvalued), but there are still dozens of other problems remaining.

In the specific case of Gadirova, based on the limited data we have of her competing not in an empty arena and with a non home crowd, she’s been enthusiastically received.

The hometown scoring debate is a separate topic, but being “enthusiastically received” in the past doesn’t mean someone wasn’t still overscored in the present. It also doesn’t necessarily need to mean hometown scoring, a particular person could just be overscored in general and happened to peak at a hometown event, leading to something like Gadirova receiving 14.4 on floor.

That would indeed be the case if the sport were losing audience appeal, but have we any reason to think it is?

It already has. Where are the professional shows that used to exist? Why are broadcast deals down? Why are men’s gymnastics programs being cut in record amounts? I’m pretty sure sales on a per-event basis are down compared to what they used to be too, but can’t say 100% for sure there.

 

[rlayt]

Mostly this is how I see it. Some of it is opinion and some of it has been said and agreed on by others from time to time.

“a disconnect from reality between how things are scored vs what was actually performed, that is widely felt.”

What is performed is scored with numbers. Not perfectly judged but still by trained and certified people on a panel that is as diverse as can be with such small numbers. “Widely felt” is just feelings. Again, not based in objective reality.

“The other part of it is what’s allowed to be performed in the first place.” I think we all agree that manipulation of the COP produced undesirable results from time to time but that you can’t call it a sport without rules. There does need to be changes and what to change and how is debated constantly. It doesn’t invalidate the performance and scores of athletes following the COP. I don’t see anyone abandoning their following of gymnastics as an option for entertaining viewing over it. Still many many children do it too.

“…hometown scoring…” IMO is just the boost athletes get from being in front of a favorable crowd, not having to travel and not disrupting their bodies as much. YMMV. But there’s no cheating going on. Whatever country gets the meet is fortunate. How often have meets been in the countries with teams on top in team finals?

“Where are the professional shows that used to exist? Why are broadcast deals down? Why are men’s gymnastics programs being cut in record amounts? I’m pretty sure sales on a per-event basis are down compared to what they used to be too, but can’t say 100% for sure there. “. Simone’s tour appears to have been successful. You can’t link any lack of viewership to what you are attributing it to because there are so many other factors involved besides the things you attribute to it. There’s no way to link the loss of shows to it. And broadcasts have never ever been demanded by audiences other than hard core gym fans EXCEPT DURING THE OLYMPICS. People have many other things drawing their attention. And there’s funding issues with men’s sports related to factors like Title 9. There never have been big audiences for men’s gymnastics.

The problems with ticket sales have many other reasons for low sales but I will say that even in the midst of the pandemic Olympic Trials were sold out long before the venue change and year’s delay. Having a world championship in Europe that starts at bad times of the day impacts sales. Costs of tickets skyrocketed. Travel is more expensive.

 

[MaryClare]

With regards to the demise of professional shows, that seems to have happened exactly at the point where NCAA really took off. You can’t have professional shows without professional gymnasts

 

[GymBeauty]

What is performed is scored with numbers. Not perfectly judged but still by trained and certified people

It doesn’t matter how well people are trained and do their job, when they are being trained to follow a broken system.

Yes, what is performed is scored with numbers - and those numbers in the rules are fabrications. Numbers in mathematics are supposed to have a true meaning: one gram of something is one gram. In the gymnastics code, numbers are just thrown around everywhere as if they are true values, when that is not the case. What something is worth in the code, in far too many cases, is not how people think it should be evaluated.

I see you agree there is work to be done in improving the code, but I have to stress what a huge issue this is. Everything comes down to what the scoring system is doing. It’s not something to just be lax about with an “oh well, it could be better, but that’s how it is” kind of attitude. The performances we see and the results we get are dependent on what the system is dictating.

We need to remember the system is supposed to be serving us - the athletes, the observers. It should be a way to measure things accurately. A scoring system should not be something that places too many artificial constraints on what’s possible and it should not be distorting the true value of what things are worth. We should not look at the rules as if they are all that defines gymnastics; we should instead be questioning and constantly trying to improve the system.

“Widely felt” is just feelings. Again, not based in objective reality.

It’s not just feelings, that is the objective reality; what better barometer is needed than every commentator talking about how they dislike the way things are being judged? Why are all these champions who know gymnastics extremely well dismayed by the scores they see?

I can not give you any concrete numbers on how many people have quit watching the sport because they dislike the way it looks and/or is judged these days. But I firmly believe it’s a problem and there are steps that can and should be taken to make the sport more engaging. I’ve talked about how the fragmented media landscape has hurt gymnastics, but there’s more to it than that. The sport itself is less interesting and understandable than it used to be.

 

[makam]

And if you can’t have a “US vs teh Commies” or however it was sold in the olden days, well, interest wanes among the casual fans. Gotta have an enemy to “fight”.

Figure skating shows in north america have also gone basically extinct. Trends change, things come and go, it happens.

 

[rlayt]

Yes, what is performed is scored with numbers - and those numbers in the rules are fabrications. Numbers in mathematics are supposed to have a true meaning: one gram of something is one gram.

Numbers mean what the group decides they mean. One gram in gymnastics is what the federation decides it is. And if one gram is judged by the duly appointed judges to be one gram it is one gram. If one gram is .1 deduction then it is so. One gram in itself means nothing until it is equated with something in reality. The worth of it is what the federation says it is worth. When everyone says the federation decides then the federation agrees in what 1 gram means that is the meaning. You may stand outside the federation and yell it isn’t so but it’s meaningless.

Give us quotes and interviews. Tell us about these champions who know the sport so well. Trll is what they think is wrong and how to fix it. Tell us their names and why they decide what is wrong. In numbers please and not feelings. Tell us why they have the authority.

I don’t disagree that there are problems but I don’t believe you have special knowledge of what is wrong. Or how to fix it. Or that these champions with special knowledge know what to do.

Please Prod don’t tell us you are getting all this from Khorkina.

 

[GymBeauty]

I think you’re missing the point with the math analogy. Numbers can’t just be frivolously assigned to things. The code breaks reality and tries to make us believe us every .1 or .3 deduction is the same thing, when that is not true in terms of how we actually view things. Like a minor grip adjust on bars vs a step on the dismount; almost everyone believes sticking a landing should be more important in gymnastics than a minor grip adjust, yet that is not the case with the code. The .1/.3/.5 scale is embarrassingly flawed and that’s just the start of it.

There is a big problem of people lazily accepting what is wrong around them. When these things are allowed to remain, it starts to seem normal. The huge structural flaws in the code need to be addressed, more work is needed than little updates every 4 years that slightly shift around letter grades or decide to start slamming everyone for slow connections. The push to deduct everything to hell since 2017 has created a particularly problematic abuse of the imbalanced numbers in the code. People should not sit around and just let the sport be warped like this. Complacency is a killer.

Give us quotes and interviews. Tell us about these champions who know the sport so well. Tell us why they have the authority.

I’m not sure if you are serious. Have you not listened to commentaries for the past 5 years? It’s been a constant outcry of the scores not accurately reflecting the gymnastics being performed. It should be self explanatory why the opinions of world champions are relevant, and a big alarm that something may be wrong when so many people are in agreement about the problem.

The current athletes have signed in agreement with the problem too, it’s not just people from an older era of gymnastics. One of Heath’s recent tweets for example - “I can’t get behind the current CoP because you watch a GREAT routine and it comes back with a 7.600 execution.”

 

[Doug1233]

It’s been a constant outcry of the scores not accurately reflecting the gymnastics being performed.

I don’t see how this in any way relates to the abhorrent abuse that Jess got online?

Even to non-gymnastics fans, but especially to anyone with gymnastics knowledge, Jess’ routine is far more visually more pleasing than both Chiles and Jade. Perhaps equal to Andrade, but she had a major error which Jess did not.

People crying about Jess’ landings have completely and conveniently forgotten that Jordan and Jade’s routines were also filled with landing errors. In fact, had more of them. Which was reflected in the few tenths of separation.

Jess was clearly the best on the day. And if the argument is “well she should have won by 2 tenths instead of 4 tenths”… then really haven’t you got anything better to do with your life?

If the objection is with the Code, then blame the Code. Raise specific objections and specific elements that you want changed. Bring back a 0.05, for example. Allow for slightly short elements with a precision deduction. Change letter values of certain skills. All fine. But a pile on to an 18yo woman online who just won her first gold at Worlds. It’s sickening.

There was also no “British fix” in the AA - Alice is also British!

The whole thing was just silly, and put a sour taste in the mouth to what was actually a great and very exciting Worlds.

 

[ArnoldRimmer]

To be clear, I’m not talking about enthusiastic reception in the past, as most of the Gadirovas senior career hasn’t actually involved audiences and junior is a different kettle of fish. I was referring to the one big competition Jess has done that had a non-domestic audience, which is Euros. If we’re talking about the popularity of the sport and mooting the possibility that overscoring is going to have a detrimental effect, the fact that a gymnast who’s been the subject of complaints about overscoring from some quarters is still obviously popular with audiences is an important point.

In terms of the shows and MAG programmes, it sounds like you’re talking about things specific to the US there? I’m not American, don’t know much about either and wasn’t talking about them, and with the MAG in particular a link isn’t immediately obvious.