Russia-Ukraine War: Effects on Gymn World

[irichluck21]

But it was an action taken by 1 individual gymnast, for which he will be rightly punished over and above Russia’s ban.

Multiple athletes appeared at the pro war rally and wore their olympic medals with the Z on their chest.
Listunova and Urasova were there.

 

[MaryClare]

As has been previously mentioned, both are minors. They are being used by the regime, just like the Ceaucescu regime used it’s gymnasts as propaganda.

However, any political views of individual athletes cannot be justification for banning an entire country from sporting competition for an extended period. There is however, plenty that does warrant it, since before one Russian soldier even set foot in Ukraine.

 

[Rich]

I am tired of Russians getting a by for being minors. you could do drugs if you are a minor. you can act irresponsibly if you are minor. That is no justification. If minors are used as idols and role models it totally justifies the banning of Russian gymnasts because it is the only way to get to Putin. he will not stop. He will not be brought and charged for war crimes as they have veto power. The only way to hurt Putin to hurt him will he has national pride. Banning russians is more about bringing an end to the war by chipping away at Putin’s world.

 

[rlayt]

We have more cameras on Ukraine than has ever been at any conflict. It isn’t that people are naive it’s that the photos, videos, sheer amount of documentation prevents Russia from explaining it away. We had no idea how low Russia would go. I’ve never seen photos of raped and shot 3 year olds. Can’t help saying it since I can’t unsee it.

 

[Rich]

With the Iraq war and many other wars, the UN was not condemning us for war crimes. We did not systematically demolish cities and kill civilians, people in hospitals. We did not rape girls from age 14-17 like they just did in Ukraine. We did not starve innocent people. This is very different.

 

[JaJa]

Nor was it our goal to colonize Iraq. However wrong headed both of the Gulf Wars may have been there is no comparing them to Putin’s invasion of Ukraine.

 

[Doug1233]

Some of the responses in this thread just make my skin crawl. Really might just exit it.

 

[JDB]

I don’t want to dwell or debate too much on the severity of things to prevent us from going off topic. I keep up with how terrible Russia’s war crimes are. Ukrainian gymnasts owe Russian gymnasts nothing beyond basic acknowledgment and courtesy. So I would defend any Ukrainian who were to give Russians the cold shoulder at competitions. I don’t know the specifics of how it should happen, but Russia will re-enter Olympic Sports eventually. There’s always a new normal after war & war crimes end.

Honestly I think Russia may stay banned for most of the decade even though the war will end soon. It may be easier to do it that way

 

[irichluck21]

As has been previously mentioned, both are minors. They are being used by the regime, just like the Ceaucescu regime used it’s gymnasts as propaganda.

I don’t doubt they are being used…that said they and their image and likeness are still very much part of the whole ordeal. At the end of they day they still appeared at a pro-war rally, with their Olympics medals, and Z on their uniform. Even if they aren’t fully consenting, they are still appearing in these photos, so it shows multiple sports heroes participating. If they are allowed to compete, their competitors might have seen it on social media.

 

[KristyJ]

At current, dude. Obviously it’s happened in the past, though for all that was wrong about the US’s justification of the Iraq war and things that happened there, I still don’t think it’s quite equatable.

 

[YurchenkoLoop]

Ever heard of Fallujah?

Or Mosul, Iraq? It was flattened twice by US airstrikes in 2003 and 2017.

 

[mnesiptolema]

To add to this and in response to the comments about Iraq, the UN Secretary General at the time, Kofi Annan, did explicitly say it was illegal and breached the UN Charter. And going straight to the UN Charter it’s clear that he’s right, since the only time violence is permissible is (a) in self-defence or (b) under a Chapter VII resolution which authorises an intervention. The US would have liked a Ch VII but didn’t get it, hence the creation of the Coalition of the Willing instead. I would also point out that the US did seek regime change, and one of the reasons for that was to install a friendly Middle Eastern government. There is evidence that some war crimes were committed, though it is clear that the Russian military has committed more in Ukraine 2022 - not that it is of great comfort to those who are suffering in either location, I’m sure.

However, of course there were obvious differences, like the fact that Saddam Hussein was a murderous dictator who was committing crimes against humanity and did his level best to appear like he was building weapons of mass destruction. It was a lot easier to justify. For that reason I would view Iraq 2003 and Ukraine 2022 as a false equivalence.

Bringing the conversation back to gymnastics, personally I wouldn’t expect a handshake between the athletes of actively warring nations. I would expect that nobody is disruptive.

My question is, when (if ever) should it be acceptable to protest on a podium? Nobody would criticise Vera Caslavska’s protest on the podium following the invasion of Czechoslovakia by the Soviet Union, or the Black Power salute by Tommie Smith and John Carlos, but the Z on Ivan Kuliak’s chest was offensive because of the cause it represents. The IOC doesn’t want to deal with any of it so they usually just ban everything, though they did decline to sanction a Ukrainian athlete recently for holding up a flag that said ‘no war’ to the camera. Is the blanket ban the way to go?

Edit: fixed names of the protests and events.

 

[Ginger]

Nobody would criticise Vera Caslavska’s protest on the podium following the Velvet Revolution

Um… The Velvet Revolution was in 1989. Caslavska’s protest during 1968 Olympics was against Russian (Soviet) invasion of her (my) country that happened in August 1968 (and Russians stayed there until 1991).

And nothing that happened in Europe/World since 1945 can be compared to the Russian invasion of Ukraine. Putin has been threatening the whole world with nuclear destruction since February, he is verbally attacking and threatening other neighbouring sovereign countries (Baltic countries and Poland namely). I don’t recall anyone, since Hitler, doing something like this. And that’s what Z stands for.

 

[JDB]

There’s also Putin’s hard-on for invading Ukraine after the Olympics. Not only is wearing “Z” incredibly mean to Ukrainians at a competition. But it further contributes to international sports being a side show for acts of military aggression. I’m not sure if a blanket ban is the way to go, but at minimum pro-war demonstrations should be off limits.

 

[MaryClare]

The delay until after the Olympics was nothing to do with sporting propaganda and everything to do with keeping China on side. China have effectively confirmed this

 

[JaJa]

The delay until after the Olympics was nothing to do with sporting propaganda

I was just about to say that. Putin does not factor in how he can use the Olympics for propaganda when deciding when or whether to invade another country

 

[Caledi]

Russia invaded Georgia in August 2008 (same month as the Beijing Olympics) and occupied Crimea in February 2014 (same month as the Sochi Olympics).

Now, given that the Olympics happen relatively often (a month or so every two years), this certainly could be a coincidence. But I do remember at least in 2008 that there was speculation that Russia wanted to take action while the world was distracted with the Olympics.

 

[JaJa]

China have effectively confirmed this

Unless I am mistaken, China has affirmatively denied it

 

[JaJa]

Russia invaded Georgia in August 2008 (same month as the Beijing Olympics) and occupied Crimea in February 2014 (same month as the Sochi Olympics).

Now, given that the Olympics happen relatively often (a month or so every two years), this certainly could be a coincidence. But I do remember at least in 2008 that there was speculation that Russia wanted to take action while the world was distracted with the Olympics.

I know that there has been a lot of speculation about this. But clearly there are myriad military and political factors which Putin has to consider and the Olympics likely are not the main ones. And then there is the fact that its hard to decipher the thought process of a lunatic.

 

[mnesiptolema]

Apologies I got the name wrong, it has been too long since I studied Cold War history and got events mixed up. I should have said Prague Spring. But yes I meant following the Soviet invasion.