Russia-Ukraine War: Effects on Gymn World

[Doug1233]

You are missing my point. I’m not talking about the use of human shields GENERALLY in a LEGITIMATE war.

 

[Doug1233]

because the media/Putin claim that the Ukrainian military is using women and children as human shields so that they can continue shooting down Russian aircraft

Again, missing my point.

The planes have to be flying over Ukraine for Ukraine to need to shoot them down.

Why is the Russian public believing that Russia need to be flying planes over Ukraine?

 

[JaJa]

ou are missing my point. I’m not talking about the use of human shields GENERALLY in a LEGITIMATE war.

then what ARE you talking about?

 

[JaJa]

Again, missing my point.

The planes have to be flying over Ukraine for Ukraine to need to shoot them down.

Why is the Russian public believing that Russia need to be flying planes over Ukraine (which may then be shot down)?

No one is missing your point Doug. We all understand and agree that Russia’s invasion of Ukraine was a total violation of international law. It was unwarranted aggression. However, Russia is still going to try to defend its actions as if this WAS a legitimate war and that includes how it conducts itself within the parameters of this war (which is actually a separate issue from was the war itself legitimate because you can have war crimes even in the context of a legitimate war) and that is why it is making these claims about children in ammo factories.

 

[MaryClare]

Douglas seems to be failing to make any sort of point

 

[Doug1233]

My point was how can Russians believe that this is a legitimate war. There is quite literally no evidence of anything which warrants it.

 

[Doug1233]

Why would they need to? Who are they needing to shield against, per the Russian media?

This was my original question. I guess we got there in the end.

 

[MaryClare]

Meanwhile in London

 

[MaryClare]

I think this has been well documented across western media, of the narrative and excuses give by Putin and the media in Russia, and their efforts to block anything that shows it to be untrue

 

[JaJa]

Just kills me every time I have to agree with you.

But in fairness most people do not know that Jus Ad Bellum and Jus In Bello are two different things.

 

[JaJa]

My point was how can Russians believe that this is a legitimate war. There is quite literally no evidence of anything which warrants it.

Thats not the issue with regard to dual use and whether children are being used as “human shields”

Jus Ad Bellum – are the rules determining whether a country is allowed to engage in armed conflict. Russia is violating those rules.

Jus In bello are the rules setting out what is and what is not legal as far as how a country conducts itself in battle. This is where dual use comes in and this is what Russia was trying to defend its attack of children’s shelter with.

They are just two separate issues. Yes, the whole thing is illegal to begin with but clearly Russia denies that it violated Jus Ad Bellum and is now defending its actions under Jus In bello

 

[Doug1233]

:+1:t2:

 

[Doug1233]

My point is that I just can’t see how rational normal nice Russian citizens can believe that Ukraine warrants being bombed by Russia. They have access to factual evidence which makes a mockery of the narrative they’re hearing on Russian state TV.

 

[MaryClare]

But we don’t. Many are against what’s happening for all sorts of reasons. Remember that millions of Ukrainians live in Russia, and millions more of us have family links to Ukraine. Nearly every young person knows a conscript, and you have many worried parents and grandparents. And that’s after you consider the humanitarian reasons.

But what do you think we can do about it? This isn’t a democracy and those attending demonstrations are doing so at huge personal risk

 

[Sanzhirovka]

But what do you think we can do about it?

Sadly, what you are doing is exactly what we expect you to do.

 

[MaryClare]

Then tell me what you think we can do

 

[JDB]

I’m sad Russia and Belarus won’t be at the World Games. I’m thinking of going to see a friend in another sport. I’d like to see RG too but those two countries missing is unfortunate.

 

[MaryClare]

Arnie gets it. It’s a shame this is not the kind of message being pushed by the main western media. Because it’s exactly the kind of thing that will work

 

[Sanzhirovka]

Well, there you go. Arnie answered your question “tell me what you think we can do”.

Do I expect you to actually do what he called on you to do?

Why, no, I do not.

But you and I may have very different take-aways on what exactly his message here is. Feel free to share your views, because the way I saw it, he very explicitly called on Russians to share the message that the Kremlin is lying. He said those Russians protesting in Russia are his new heroes. The very same people you mentioned when you said this:

This isn’t a democracy and those attending demonstrations are doing so at huge personal risk.

 

[MaryClare]

That is correct. It isn’t a democratic country. They are doing so at huge personal risk. Is that not the same as saying they are very brave? That they are risking a great deal?

I have already share the video, (it’s on his Telegram), with all my Russian contacts. I have shared many things from the western media over last couple of weeks.