FX EF INQUIRY (Jordan Chiles Stripped Of Bronze Medal/USAG launches appeal)

[Caligym]

I haven’t seen enough info to have a true opinion either way, but one thing has been bugging me. How does a still photo prove someone didn’t go out of bounds? Maybe they were out of bounds right before or after that shot?

 

[Denn]

An oob deduction should always be clear, hence neutral deduction. Again - if you do not take an ND that happened and your mistake is decisive - you are in far more trouble.

If this is how you have been trained, then there is even more reason for the WTC to be restaffed.

 

[onodian]

Has photo2 been posted in this forum? Apologies if I missed this — I would be happy to be corrected on the error.

No

That's why I referred to it like that before

 

[Denn]

I haven’t seen enough info to have a true opinion either way, but one thing has been bugging me. How does a still photo prove someone didn’t go out of bounds? Maybe they were out of bounds right before or after that shot?

It doesn't. Only video would do what photo1 in that post claims... But photo2, if it exists, would prove that a ND is justified.

 

[MaryClare]

Isn't the issue that we have no idea whether Voinea went oob because Camelia never appealed it?

I have seen 2 photos of Sabrina's fx
photo 1 - the heel - seems to suggest that she did not go oob
photo 2 - the toes - do suggest an oob - that her big toe was over the line

But we do not know which of these potential oobs was deducted because there was no ND inquiry to it was never assessed

Yes this is what I am trying to say.

If Voinea had inquired her ND, and it was rejected then yes there is a debate to be had.

But she didn’t. So it’s too bad

 

[onodian]

But she didn’t. So it’s too bad

This is a G element in the trolling CoP but I'm docking a 0.3 cause I could almost hear you giggling

 

[MaryClare]

If this is how you have been trained, then there is even more reason for the WTC to be restaffed.

I don’t know why people are feeling so strongly about this. We don’t know if she went oob or not. But she didn’t fully utilise the inquiry system, which is there for them human errors inevitably occur.

 

[CameliasFingerpaint]

It is kind of nuts that the gymnast who had the best claim to the bronze medal was the only gymnast never in possession of it.

 

[Aeris]

you have to specify you want to inquire an ND

That's why I said the rule should change!! It was completely obvious why they were inquiring: the ND. Voinea was already given the max D-score, there was nothing to inquire there. There shouldn't be this red tape process of being denied because you accidentally filed for a D-score inquiry rather than ND.

Isn't the issue that we have no idea whether Voinea went oob because Camelia never appealed it?

I have seen 2 photos of Sabrina's fx

There are far more than 2 photos of Sabrina's routine in existence. There are videos, in close-up, from multiple angles, of every time she was near the corner. She was never out of bounds.

 

[makam]

I don’t know why people are feeling so strongly about this. We don’t know if she went oob or not. But she didn’t fully utilise the inquiry system, which is there for them human errors inevitably occur.

It is also kinda nuts with all the cameras on the floor and in the stands that there is still uncertainty about this (other than the fact that you can't prove a negative, right?).

 

[FrolovasDoubleLayout]

When submitting a formal inquiry on a D-score you need to state what the expected D-score is including the potential counting VP, CR and CV/DMT bonus. The jury then reviews the exercise to see if any or all is there or if any or all is missing. As stated by many posters (and Chiles herself), the potential outcomes of an inquiry can be:

increase - based on the the review opinion of the jury over that of the D-panel
denied - based on the review opinion of the jury agreeing with the D-panel
lowered (Eaker is s good example) - based on the review opinion of the jury over that of the D-panel.

They do not just look at a single element. For example, they could agree to give a D for a Gogean than was evaluated as a Strug, but then maybe call a wolf turm 1080° instead a wolf turn 720° based on their opinion.

Re: ND

Perhaps in instances where ND are applied to the score of an exercise, the same principle can be used that applies to vaults that score 0,00 - do a video review and then come up with a decision on the moment. There are not so many ND that it would a Herculean task.

 

[MaryClare]

That's why I said the rule should change!! It was completely obvious why they were inquiring: the ND. Voinea was already given the max D-score, there was nothing to inquire there. There shouldn't be this red tape process of being denied because you accidentally filed for a D-score inquiry rather than ND.


There are far more than 2 photos of Sabrina's routine in existence. There are videos, in close-up, from multiple angles, of every time she was near the corner. She was never out of bounds.

Maybe it should be changed. And maybe in light of events, it will be. But those were not the rules on the day

 

[MaryClare]

It is also kinda nuts with all the cameras on the floor and in the stands that there is still uncertainty about this (other than the fact that you can't prove a negative, right?).

What do you mean can’t prove a negative?

 

[Denn]

I don’t know why people are feeling so strongly about this. We don’t know if she went oob or not. But she didn’t fully utilise the inquiry system, which is there for them human errors inevitably occur.

(a) We know and
(b) The coach should not have to check the judge's work on line calls
(c) If you were a line judge, you would make up deductions to troll coaches and gymnasts!

 

[Passion]

 

[onodian]

I mean, I saw the helpdesk where that rule was but now I can't find it again, it's certainly not on the fig technical regulations 2024. You know, because more shitshow

 

[makam]

What do you mean can’t prove a negative?

Scientifically. Not so much in gymnastics.

 

[ucrgirl]

The more I think about this, the more I think the right decision would have been for the FIG to issue a mea culpa and award bronze to all three gymnasts, or two if they could provide compelling evidence of Voinea's OOB. I realise it's a bit of a stretch to have to prove an OOB, but the photo of her heel being above the line has really muddied the waters. This result is just too shitty to the athletes, who have done nothing wrong.

Agreed that they should award multiple medals. I know the IOC hates ties but the do happen. I remember two gold medals for high jump(?) in Tokyo.

The IOC has recently covered up positive sopping tests and allowed those athletes to compete and win medals in Tokyo (search Chinese swimming scandal) and told the USOPC to shut up about it. So I don’t really care about the way the IOC feels about ties and multiple medals.

 

[MaryClare]

View attachment 11094

Her toe is possibly oob on the turn there. It’s hard to say either way from that video

 

[ruby]

@Denn Again - how would you react if the .1 ND had not been taken and an OOB would be visible after the fact.
I mean - you are clearly upset by the judge's mistake (which we do not even know for sure) although there was an option to inquire by the coach which they did not use.
I somehow have problems imagining your calm and rational reaction to a mistakenly not-deducted OOB.