FX EF INQUIRY (Jordan Chiles Stripped Of Bronze Medal/USAG launches appeal)

[heythere]

I'd rather have nothing than someone else's pity medal.

Why say it's a pity medal? Without the 0.1 unfair penalty, Sabrina would have won the bronze medal. If her performance was really bad, then it would make sense to make fun about the pity medal. The judges ruined everything.

 

[MaryClare]

Why say it's a pity medal? Without the 0.1 unfair penalty, Sabrina would have won the bronze medal. If her performance was really bad, then it would make sense to make fun about the pity medal. The judges ruined everything.

No. Her mother ruined everything. She didn’t submit the correct inquiry.

Also, it’s someone else’s medal, it’s a pity medal.

 

[QuietColours]

What I can't get over at the moment is that it doesn't seem like there was any official timing done at all, and the 64 seconds was determined from reconstructed video coverage taken during the chaos of an Olympic arena after the final scores were posted. I would love to see the footage that was so clear they could determine within a margin of four seconds of when the verbal inquiry was made. I'm not saying it's impossible, but I want to see it.

Also, I can't hold with striping an athlete of a medal because of an administrative failure (not an error--failure to time the inquiry was a failure) on the field of play. Awarding a co-medalist, yes. Punishing an athlete, no.

 

[Denn]

@QuietColours Totally agree — and I think most of us do — that this is totally absurd rule-mongering.

 

[FrolovasDoubleLayout]

This is the FIG - all you have to do is to think back to the vaulting fiasco from WC where a HUN athlete was stripped of her OG participation error due to an administrative mistake.

 

[ruby]

There were two unfortunate errors in that floor final on the official's side:

Accepting an inquiry 4 seconds late. Which, one could argue - followed the principle of being for the gymnast and not against the gymnast.

The change of D by the superior jury for Chiles could be argued to be wrong (the videos we have show she is clearly a lot more than 30° short) but the jury's view and their video might have given them a less clear view and they might have felt that there had been some leniency before and wanted to continue with that.

BUT the real mistake was Voinea's coach not inquiring the ND. It's the coach's job to know about their rights and their options. The possibility to inquire is there because mistakes happen. They should have known. This is not a state championship with young coaches. It's the most important competition for any coach and their gymnast. I hate that fans (and yes, most of you are fans and not at all familiar with the ongoings in high level gymnastics) continue to argue that anyone but Camelia Voinea is at fault for the wrong ND. It's her f****** job to know the rules which, btw, are not in some secret place only accessible after sacrificing your firstborn. They can be accessed by anyone anytime and there is just no excuse.

 

[MaryClare]

There were two unfortunate errors in that floor final on the official's side:

Accepting an inquiry 4 seconds late. Which, one could argue - followed the principle of being for the gymnast and not against the gymnast.

The change of D by the superior jury for Chiles could be argued to be wrong (the videos we have show she is clearly a lot more than 30° short) but the jury's view and their video might have given them a less clear view and they might have felt that there had been some leniency before and wanted to continue with that.

BUT the real mistake was Voinea's coach not inquiring the ND. It's the coach's job to know about their rights and their options. The possibility to inquire is there because mistakes happen. They should have known. This is not a state championship with young coaches. It's the most important competition for any coach and their gymnast. I hate that fans (and yes, most of you are fans and not at all familiar with the ongoings in high level gymnastics) continue to argue that anyone but Camelia Voinea is at fault for the wrong ND. It's her f****** job to know the rules which, btw, are not in some secret place only accessible after sacrificing your firstborn. They can be accessed by anyone anytime and there is just no excuse.

Thank you for this summary. I completely agree

 

[Passion]

The real mistake was the line judge who claimed OOB on a routine that had none.

Her ONLY job was lines.

How is the real mistake the person who didn’t properly correct the original mistake?

Voinea not inquiring the ND isn’t even a thing that can exist without the original mistake from the line judge happening in the first place.

 

[Denn]

There were two unfortunate errors in that floor final on the official's side:

Accepting an inquiry 4 seconds late. Which, one could argue - followed the principle of being for the gymnast and not against the gymnast.

The change of D by the superior jury for Chiles could be argued to be wrong (the videos we have show she is clearly a lot more than 30° short) but the jury's view and their video might have given them a less clear view and they might have felt that there had been some leniency before and wanted to continue with that.

BUT the real mistake was Voinea's coach not inquiring the ND. It's the coach's job to know about their rights and their options. The possibility to inquire is there because mistakes happen. They should have known. This is not a state championship with young coaches. It's the most important competition for any coach and their gymnast. I hate that fans (and yes, most of you are fans and not at all familiar with the ongoings in high level gymnastics) continue to argue that anyone but Camelia Voinea is at fault for the wrong ND. It's her f****** job to know the rules which, btw, are not in some secret place only accessible after sacrificing your firstborn. They can be accessed by anyone anytime and there is just no excuse.

Hold up: The elder Voinea has some responsibility in this, yes, but you are sidestepping the fault of the judges in at least three other ways:

A) The line judge took a neutral deduction that should not have taken. That was a blatant error. She single-handedly decided the floor exercise medal with that error, and...

B) The committee that wrote the rules does not include a systematic checks and balances for line errors like they do for the D-score (2 judges and a supervisor checking things) or E-score (I already listed all 4 checks and balances). That's a fundamental error of the technical committee.

C) One could also argue that the technical committees have not spelled out inquiries about neutral deductions as clearly in the Code of Points or technical regulations as D-scores, and that the rules have become so bloated and unwieldy that no human can keep track of all that.

So Is Camilla Voinea responsible for a mistake? Sure. But her mistake is just one in a chain of errors mostly made by officials.

 

[phoenix7]

It is certainly very, very strange.

Mrs Connor and Mrs Harper, who’ve had nothing to do with Romanian gymnastics for decades. Where were they in 2000?

Nadia was actually heavily involved in Andrea Raducan's appeals and media in 2000.

Daniela Silivas was Camelia Voinea's teammate 1985-88. So I can see why they would be close, though I haven't enjoyed the factionalism.

 

[JoseM]

Who won the bronze medal?

Perhaps Jordan Chiles.

Perhaps Ana Barbosu.

Whoever won the medal, fact is that on FX Barbosu and Chiles both did truly GREAT !

Barbosu and Chiles both did great, and both should feel proud of themselves.

I am no gymn judge. I am no expert in gymn scoring. However, I truly hope that the bronze medal matter will be solved in the most sensitive and fair way, and that the gymnast who truly won it will definitely get it. The gymnast who does not get the medal should not feel bad, because anyway she did great, she is an excellent gymnast, she made the Olympic Team, and she should feel proud of herself.

I prayfully hope that the bronze medal controversy will be solved in the best and most fair way possible.

My greetings and best wishes for Barbosu, Chiles, and all the gymnasts.

José M.

 

[onodian]

Surely taking an ND that wasn't there has to be in the top problems with the officials in that final?

I agree with your arguments i just think they apply to Jordan as well. If we're going to say the Romanians had to know then the USers also had to know, if you want to apply leniency to one it's hard not to argue leniency for the other. At least the US issue is in the actual technical regulations and not in a help desk that now I can't even find in the fig website.

This was always going to be either we're lenient with everyone and then sabrina ends on top, or we get really anal with the rules and then it's Ana. I'm sorry but the other options sound to me like you're bending the rules to fit Jordan. All this of course on top of the fact that there is nobody that thinks granting that inquiry was correct, except apparently the people who gave it

 

[ruby]

The real mistake was the line judge who claimed OOB on a routine that had none.

Her ONLY job was lines.

How is the real mistake the person who didn’t properly correct the original mistake?

Voinea not inquiring the ND isn’t even a thing that can exist without the original mistake from the line judge happening in the first place.

Oh please. Have you judged line? It's awful being on the floor and it's absolutely horrible watching a little screen. Nothing prepares you for that, you can't practice it, you can never get better at it and no one is ever happy to do it. Any random person from the street could do line after a 3-minute explanation.
AND LUCKILY THERE IS AN OPTION TO INQUIRE. But I'm gonna stop now because it feels like banging my head against a wall.

 

[Denn]

There's also the fact

Oh please. Have you judged line? It's awful being on the floor and it's absolutely horrible watching a little screen. Nothing prepares you for that, you can't practice it, you can never get better at it and no one is ever happy to do it. Any random person from the street could do line after a 3-minute explanation.
AND LUCKILY THERE IS AN OPTION TO INQUIRE. But I'm gonna stop now because it feels like banging my head against a wall.

Well I HAVE judged line.

I resonate with you on the fact that it's a hard judgment to make sometimes, but that doesn't take away from the fact that the jugment was wrong, that there was no mechanism to check it, and that it determined a medal in the FX final.

 

[MaryClare]

Oh please. Have you judged line? It's awful being on the floor and it's absolutely horrible watching a little screen. Nothing prepares you for that, you can't practice it, you can never get better at it and no one is ever happy to do it. Any random person from the street could do line after a 3-minute explanation.
AND LUCKILY THERE IS AN OPTION TO INQUIRE. But I'm gonna stop now because it feels like banging my head against a wall.

Also, it hasn’t been proven that she didn’t go OOB.

Human errors occur. That’s why the inquiry process is there. Voinea didn’t utilise it. Had she done so, and it was rejected then yes, we could have a debate about it. But she didn’t

 

[ruby]

Surely taking an ND that wasn't there has to be in the top problems with the officials in that final?

I agree with your arguments i just think they apply to Jordan as well. If we're going to say the Romanians had to know then the USers also had to know, if you want to apply leniency to one it's hard not to argue leniency for the other. At least the US issue is in the actual technical regulations and not in a help desk that now I can't even find in the fig website.

This was always going to be either we're lenient with everyone and then sabrina ends on top, or we get really anal with the rules and then it's Ana. I'm sorry but the other options sound to me like you're bending the rules to fit Jordan. All this of course on top of the fact that there is nobody that thinks granting that inquiry was correct, except apparently the people who gave it

Errmm....no? That judge did the right thing. If you are very unsure you put in the ND so the coach can inquire. If you don't and it turns out there was an ND - you are the person gifting someone a placement they haven't earned and nothing can be done about it.

Jordan's coach put in an inquiry, they were 4 seconds late. Sabrina's coach didn't at all. Romania basically started flailing after they had realised they had messed up. They were lucky Jordan's inquiry had actually been late - no one can tell me they knew it was 64 seconds instead of 60. They basically took a shot in the dark and hit something.

 

[onodian]

The technical regulations do state the person receiving the inquiry documents the time they receive it.

 

[Lisaelaine80]

Did Sabrina’s mom inquiry about anything?

 

[MaryClare]

Did Sabrina’s mom inquiry about anything?

Yes, she inquired the D score

 

[Passion]

Did Sabrina’s mom inquiry about anything?

Yes, she inquired the D score.