Should this Worlds have even happened this way?

[Doug1233]

The Mo salto and Marinich are exempt from deduction for back swing

Not true.

See 0:35



They’re only exempt from the 0.5 empty swing deduction.

I am inclined to think judges would forgive the necessary grip change, too

You’re probably right - but what makes you think that?

 

[YurchenkoLoop]

I meant empty* swing.

And I think that judges would forgive the necessary grip change because nobody does a KCH from reverse grip

 

[Doug1233]

I’m sure you’re right - but they should clarify what a “grip adjustment” is. What Yao does in that video is 100% a grip adjustment, right?

 

[RedBirdie]

I’m wondering…did moving the judges further away from the equipment cause judges to start taking more deductions? “I think it looked like a grip adjustment/short handstand/bent arms so I’ll take the deduction.” I mean, your average brevet is no spring chicken with stellar eyesight.

WTC has basically said its impossible to do any skill without deduction, the judges know this, but they’re so removed from the equipment…the obvious deductions are, well, obvious. But those borderline calls? Feels like the judges are erring on the side of “take all the assumed deductions” as a result.

 

[YurchenkoLoop]

I think judges are still probably giving the benefit of the doubt in many cases, but that they generally are hawking down on a lot of minor errors in part because the AI judging software will likely be deducting for the littlest things

I also think there are definitely series that go deduction-free! A lot of gymnasts do very beautiful free walkover + split jump + straddle combos and some manage to evade hesitation in rhythm deductions/bent knee on aerial deductions

 

[Denn]

The mindset of an E-panel judge is to deduct as much as possible. Knowledgeable judges know all the deductions and where to find them. So they will not only find most or all of the actual errors but also might see errors that aren’t there due to the limitations of their eyes and, frankly, due to fear of being out of line, where there’s an accountability issue. So @RedBirdie is 100% correct. They do deduct ghost errors sometimes and we’ve seen our own Gymnaverse judges do it, too, including me. (Keep in mind that we, at the least, judge these exercises out in the open and subject ourselves to critique. FIG judges do not, so I admire all our friends here VERY much for doing this. It’s so helpful for understanding and discussing the rules and how they affect rankings and routine construction.)

MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE: One of the longtime head judges in the US (5-10 years ago) once said to all of us at a training, “I’m trying to give as many points as I can, not take them away.” That mentality is gone from [elite] gymnastics. Gymnastics judging is now, quite literally, about tearing down gymnasts. And this is why I quit a few years ago. I would leave competitions feeling dirty — like I was there to hurt the spirits of the athletes that had worked hard. And it hurt even more doing this to kids. I just couldn’t participate in it anymore.

Can it be fixed? I don’t know… Two thoughts…

1. A more neutral system, psychologically, would be to decide how much of the value of an element should be rewarded in some sort of holistic way. “That was a C element, and those are worth 0.7 [new scale]. Two tiny errors, so 0.6.”
2. My guess is that, at this point, the software will actually benefit gymnasts. It’s not going to evaluate everything — mostly things like angles. But that’s good because a computer can catch a split-second position better than a human eye – especially a human eye that is hellbent on wanting to see deductions.

 

[RedBirdie]

I feeling like at least on the girls side of things, in the development program (JO) and Xcel, the “tear gymnasts down” mindset has been avoided (for the most part. There’s always that one judge…). I have to think that has to do with sticking with the 10.00 system and being able to take deductions in .05 increments.

 

[Denn]

That sounds right to me. In the boys Junior Olympic program, we had to use FIG scoring, and while we were lenient the first 7ish years, in 20013, they started pushing us to take more 0.3 and 0.5 deductions. They even encouraged us to write S, M, and L for small, medium, and large instead of numbers so we would be more (pyschologically) inclined to take the harsher deductions.

Honestly, it was kind of okay for the compulsory exercises. I didn’t feel bad, and there were always a couple totally brilliant kids who could score 9.4 or 9.6, even with the tough deductions. But for the optional routines, some gyms would put all their kids up with 7 or 8 skills, mostly As and Bs filling requirements, maybe a C or two, and they’d get E-scores a point higher than kids who did a set of 10 of Cs, Ds, and Es. Plus the execution bonus. So it was common for one of them to win against a kid who clearly was better at the apparatus.

 

[Doug1233]

Thank god for this

 

[QuietColours]

Oh, thank goodness.

Google translate of text:

To everyone who always supports me

We apologize for the inconvenience, but we have been discharged safely today!
I am sorry that I could not meet my expectations even though I received enthusiastic support from Japanese people at the world championships held in my country.

We received many heartwarming words of encouragement both at home and abroad.
It’s painful that I can’t give back one by one, but I’m very encouraged to see all of them. I’m really thankful to you.

Now I am devoting myself to treatment and working hard so that I can recover as soon as possible.
I would be grateful if you could watch over me warmly.

Hitomi Hatakeda

 

[ArnoldRimmer]

MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE: One of the longtime head judges in the US (5-10 years ago) once said to all of us at a training, “I’m trying to give as many points as I can, not take them away.” That mentality is gone from [elite] gymnastics. Gymnastics judging is now, quite literally, about tearing down gymnasts.

For me, it stopped feeling at least somewhat intuitive a few years ago. Probably around the time this approach was coming in. I feel I understand less.

 

[Kittentoes]

So relieved! I was really afraid.

 

[Doug1233]

It sounded really bad.

I remember Jessica saying “she has regained some feeling in her upper body” like 4 days after the injury.

Then 2 days later she’s stood up outside!

 

[KristyJ]

Coming back in late, but @Doug1233 and @Denn at least we’d be in range if I went with the 8.2. I actually did not take the deduction on the Pak. I don’t have my notes but I do know I took for body shape in a couple of places, but not there. No deductions for amplitude in the core of the routine. The dismount I hit for height/chest on landing in addition to the bounding step.
I am not, and never could be due to never elite, a brevet judge, but I would be very unsurprised to see some judges taking that additional .3 on the dismount in order to be in range with others. The question is then if the others are afraid of underdeducting and if that would cause judges to have to be ultra-harsh.