Should this Worlds have even happened this way?

[Denn]

PIROUETTE

PAK — clearly within 30°. No deductions. Yet most took 0.3, i bet.

 

[cats]

It would literally take like… maybe an hour to set up a system that displays a protractor over the bar like you have.

Why don’t they just do that? Other sports do it. I don’t think that the tech football uses to draw the lines on the field has hurt the game, and neither has the baseball strike zone box. It would be so much easier. Writing a system that just finds the angles on its own would also be possible…

 

[JDB]

I could find myself getting quite attached to the concept of a warming down worlds after the Olympics. It helps with the transition. Like the world cup final used to be.

World championships during Olympic years would be good especially since Olympics spots are getting so tight. But hosting worlds needs to be coveted for it to become reality. I wonder if Watanabe can undo 25 years worth of poor management and make worlds attractive.

 

[YurchenkoLoop]

I took nothing for Downie’s Pak–hers is generally that good even when into a Maloney/VL I think!-- and had 7.9 in real time. Also only .1 for the pirouette finish. Her Hindorff is .3 for height and her other Tkachevs also get height deductions.

 

[Denn]

Hindorff - I can see taking a tenth here, and I did. I also took 0.1 for the catch position, which is sort of redundant, but hey, this is the WAG Code. That’s how we do.

Ray-half… Maybe I’m wrong, but this seems pretty high.

 

[RedBirdie]

My bad, I meant the Hindorff, not the Ray.

 

[Denn]

I made a similar mistake. Hindorff, not Ricna. I fixed it.

@YurchenkoLoop Could you share your breakdown, since you did get her under 8?

 

[Concorde]

Here is mine:

1 x F (Tweddle)
2 x E (Hindorff, van Leeuwen)
5 x D (stalder full, stalder Shaposhnikova, Ezhova, Pak salto, full twisting double tuck dismount)

Total DV - 3.6

CV:

stalder full + stalder Shaposhnikova + Hindorff (D + D, both with turn or flight, and D flight from low bar to high bar + C or higher with turn or flight on high bar) - 0.3

Tweddle + Ezhova (E + D or higher, both with flight) - 0.2

Maloney + Pak salto (D + D, both with turn or flight) - 0.1

Total CV - 0.6

CR

Flight from high bar to low bar - Ezhova
Flight element on same bar - Hindorff
Different Grips - stalder Shaposhnikova, Ezhova
Non-flight with 360 degree turn - stalder full

Total D - 3.6 + 0.6+ 2.0 = 6.2

Deductions

cast to handstand with legs straddled

• (body posture / slight pike in hips) 0.1

stalder full

• (angle of completion → between 11 and 30 degrees of handstand) 0.1 (It was a clear 0.1 for me in real time.)

Hindorff

• (insufficient height - hips at bar height upon regrasp) 0.1
• (bent arms upon regrasp) 0.3 (Look at how much her arms extend from the catch to the hang into the cast.)

cast to handstand with legs straddled

• (body posture / slight pike in hips) 0.1

Tweddle

• (lack of precision / incomplete turn) 0.1

Ezhova

• (insufficient height) 0.1 / 0.3 * (Looks very ‘dumpy’ in real time with no rise in the center of gravity, but working out of a Tweddle type skill, it’s not going to have the same float as you would from a front giant swing)

Pak salto

• (angle of completion → between 31 and 45 degrees of handstand) 0.1 ^ (Again, borderline to me in real time because of the downward motion out, so I would accept either call)

van Leeuwen

• (bent arms upon regrasp) 0.1
• (lack of precision / turn not fully completed before regrasp) 0.1

cast to handstand with legs straddled

• (body posture, slight pike in hips) 0.1

full twisting double tuck

• (insufficient height) 0.1
• (body posture, chest forward) 0.1
• (large step on landing) 0.3

Total Deductions - (1.7 - 2.0) 8.0 - 8.3

 

[ruby]

The biggest deduction is the Hindorff which is .3 for height (hip below bar at catch) and either .1 or .3 for bent arms. The pirouette should be a .3 as well because the feet cannot be used as a reference point. Her back is clearly arched (.1) when she finishes her turn so the line would go through her chest/belly and then the angle is around 30°/35° so the .3 is alright. To better understand that rationale - imagine if someone had an even archier position with the feet within 10 degrees…
The dismount is clear I think…3 for the step, maybe .1 for height…1 for not opening enough out of the tuck…
There are several handstands with .1 BP deductions…most obvious the first one…
There is also the habitual grip adjustment with her left (?) hand on her kip chs which could be deducted with .1 each…

 

[rue_des_plantes]

7.7-7.9, without going in on the Pak or pirouette. Grip adjustments, alignment/extension in casts and handstands, awful dismount, the releases. I wanted to shout at her and Suni’s coaches all year, did they know grip adjustments are a tenth each time in WAG elite?!

Whether it’s fair to the rest of the field, I don’t know. I usually think UB scores are high but would need to see several other sets first from the same round in front of me.

 

[Doug1233]

What’s your E Score? I’ll add you into the sheet.

 

[YurchenkoLoop]

KCH pike in hips/missed handstand .1
Stalder 1/1 late .1
Chow bent arms .1
Hindorff height .1 (I took .3 in real time but am giving her the benefit of the doubt), bent arms catch .1, lack of rotation .1
KCH pike in hips/missed handstand .1, grip adjustment .1
Tweddle height .1 (hips below bar)
Ezhova height .1 (slight leg separation but I did not deduct)
KCH grip adjustment .1
Maloney bent arms .1
KCH grip adjustment .1
Van Leeuwen bent arms catch .1
Tap bent knees .1
Tap bent knees .1
Dismount height .1, foot form .1, large step .3 … also could definitely deduct for the chest forward
E: 7.9

I forgive turning elements – the incomplete twist of the Tweddle – perhaps more than I should…

 

[Denn]

I disagree about “bent arm catch” on the Van Leeuwen. The expectation of locked arm catches on a transition element from low to high runs counter to the desire for some flight. Either you loosen the arms or you fold in the shoulders a little. Is that a deduction, too? I mean… Besides, she’s slack in her arms, but I would not call that “bent”, and certainly not close to the bar or unable to swing out smoothly, which is the real intention.

I also disagree about these height / amplitude deductions on the Yezhova. I don’t remember any rule about that, and my intuition is that element is done well.

I did not deduct every grip adjustment. They are so slight, not a real regrasp of the bar, and no repositioning of the hand either.

Does that minor of a hand adjustment constitute a 0.1 error? I mean, at this rate, maybe we should start deducting for “Inappropriately placed breath”?

 

[YurchenkoLoop]

Yeah, I think deducting for bent arms on catching transitions is a little asinine too, but the code is the code!

Regarding the Ezhova, there’s no rule about a lack of height specifically for an Ezhova, but there’s no rule specifically for height on a Pak either. Everyone ought to do it like Liudmila-- so much height, she achieves a true vertical position and twists along the correct axis, and no leg separation


The CoP has “Adjusted grip position” as a .1 deduction and I can’t imagine what else that would be for if not the repositioning of the hands that Downie and so many others do.

 

[Denn]

The angle rule for Paks is a de facto amplitude rule, as one can’t catch within 30° of handstand without amplitude, right?

I would deduct Lee’s grip adjustments on her kip-casts (see below) because she actually repositions her hand. Downie just sort of grips the bar a little better. That’s an “adjustment” but I don’t think it’s an “error”, and I feel like that’s not the spirit of the rule. But obviously, it very well could be that the WTC has instructed to judge little adjustments like that, too.



I do really like Yezhova’s flighty air position, and I definitely can see why you would want to reward that by deducting less flighty versions. That said, Downie’s doing hers out of a Tkatchev half and there’ no rule about this “error” as far as I know. So for now… (I do prefer Downie’s catch, btw.)

@YurchenkoLoop and others – thank you. I needed this lovely chat and friendly debate this afternoon. You are also awesome!

 

[YurchenkoLoop]

YOU’RE awesome, Denn!! Thanks for all you do for us.

During the pandemic I watched all the prominent 80s gymnastics meets and one of the things I was struck by was how gymnasts never adjusted their grips on the bars. Wherever your hands where was where you kept them until you released/pirouetted. Granted perhaps a lot of gymnasts need to adjust today because actual grips themselves get stuck and such.



It is so satisfying to me that Yurchenko doesn’t adjust her grip after the hecht mount and before her Tkachev – maybe I should start calling it a Davydova hmm

 

[Denn]

I forgot that she did Tkatchev + Deltchev. Big combo!

 

[Doug1233]

I did not deduct every grip adjustment. They are so slight, not a real regrasp of the bar, and no repositioning of the hand either.

I agree. I hate this “she make a tiny movement in her wrist and so we must take 0.1” (i.e. the same as a step on the landing).

Yes when they’re literally travelling down the bar like the Italians or the Chinese. Otherwise, not for me.

 

[Doug1233]

The CoP has “Adjusted grip position” as a .1 deduction and I can’t imagine what else that would be for if not the repositioning of the hands that Downie and so many others do.

I wonder how far this goes. Is “hop to forward grip” after a kip cast, also an “adjusted grip position”?

At 16 seconds:



What about Yao Jinnan hop to regular grip after her Gaylord over the bar?

At 21 seconds:



Obviously not reaching horizontal in the backswing is a separate issue.

 

[YurchenkoLoop]

A hop with grip change is acceptable in the code: skill 2.101

Cast to hstd with legs straddled or with hips bent; also with hop-grip change

The Mo salto and Marinich are exempt from deduction for back swing and I am inclined to think judges would forgive the necessary grip change, too