Ponor vs Carey FX artistry

[Denn]

@JaJa I agree that it is enormously problematic to require “feminine grace” and this is literally the phrase in the current code – phrasing that was introduced in 2001 and later removed because of the bias inherent in it.

The entire Women’s Technical Committee should be fired for that and the rules revised, making dance an optional element, among others.

However…

I don’t think that most people totally equate artistry with feminine grace. That’s a more extreme position, and there are lots of counterexamples over the years, even internationally. There are MANY other aesthetics that Carey could use, yet she chose this aesthetic — so it’s fair game to judge it for what it attempts to be.

Moreover, even if she had a different style, she’d probably fail. She really lacks musicality. She is never sharp where sharpness is called for, never soft where softness is called for, and always rigid, never loose. She also has limited mobility in certain parts of her body. All of these are independent of feminine grace, and all of these would inhibit her artistry, regardless of aesthetic.

I’ll add that I used to judge men’s gymnastics when there were rules that did reward guys for artistry – even with no music or dance. I am not sure Carey has anything artistic under those rules, except maybe the sequence after her double double. Maybe.

 

[JaJa]

Here are some possible dance elements for Jade’s next routine

 

[Doug1233]

Honestly I find the continued emphasis on artistry in WAG, as opposed to MAG, a sexist throwback to outdated notions of gender roles.

I think if you asked most gymnasts they’d say they like having music and dancing to their FX routines. And would like it less if they removed the music and had them just tumble, leap and spin to nothing.

 

[arabiandoublefront]

Choosing my floor music every year was one of my favorite parts of gymnastics, and I was always proud of myself that I could choreograph my own floor routines. For all my insecuritiies, I couldn’t imagine not doing floor to music. It was fun.

 

[JaJa]

I think if you asked most gymnasts they’d say they like having music and dancing to their FX routines. And would like it less if they removed the music and had them just tumble, leap and spin to nothing.

I know that that is the case. But that does not mean it is not a practice which reinforces negative stereotypes to the detriment of women in the long run.

 

[blake]

She managed to knock Raisman out as least enjoyable FX champion in world/olympic history for me. Even if Aly couldn’t hit a beat to save her life, she had energy. Silvia or whoever choreographed it did a better job trying to cover the lack of music/dance training/ability. Jade’s elite routines especially feel very robotic because she’s methodical and can’t seem to hit a beat without mental preparation.

OSU has had better choreo than the average top 20 team for a while, so I’m a little surprised Jade’s floor is still so catatonic.

 

[Doug1233]

Hmmm. I disagree.

 

[Caledi]

I can definitely see it both ways. What I have never been able to come up with an argument for is choreography on beam. There it really does seem to be a sexist throwback about “feminine grace”. And how can gymnasts “dance” without any music anyways?

 

[onodian]

Yeah i agree beam is weirder in many ways. I do like that it has a performance aspect, but that that should be choreography, i don’t know. But i do like considering the whole movement between elements s part of the routine.

 

[flappergirl]

Why is having dance in the floor routine sexist? It’s superior in my opinion and if women get to do it and not men, the men are unlucky.

 

[lovegymnasts]

Exactly! I do not like men’s gymnastics for this reason. If they had more artistry, I would probably find them more interesting. When I finally saw a gymnast with beautiful grace do one of the required elements on floor, I said, “Oh…that’s how it is supposed to be done and that’s why they do that.”

 

[JaJa]

Why is having dance in the floor routine sexist?

Because it makes it , in essence, a different sport. In MAG athleticism is more valued as opposed to “grace”

 

[Doug1233]

Tell that to our last 3 Olympic floor champions.

 

[JoseM]

Jade’s tumbling is better than her artistry.

José M.

 

[JoseM]

Ponor is more artistic than Carey.

José M.

 

[flappergirl]

But they are different sports: different apparatuses, different rule sets, separate competitions. For me personally, I absolutely hate sexism, have experienced a lot of it in my life. On the other hand, I love women’s floor exercise. Though I do understand what you are saying, I am choosing not to label something I love with a concept I hate.

 

[Bob]

I totally agree. The dance part of gymnastics was a huge part of why I loved competing. Girls and boys love to dance, personally I think mens floor should be more artistic not womens floor less artistic. There is a separate sport called tumbling if you just want to tumble without the artistry.

People jumping on the sexist bandwaggon miss the point that girls can be athletic and still love to dance and be artistic and wear sparkles and have fancy hair and go out and kick butt. Stop trying to hold them back! They don’t want to be slotted into your backwards idea of ‘fairness between the sexes’

 

[Doug1233]

I see no reason why there can’t be a similar artistry deduction for mens FX. Working in and out of the corners. Complex movement. Fluidity. Upper and Lower body extension.

Is there really nothing in the mens code dealing with any of that?

 

[rlayt]

Music too? I remember a discussion years ago about this. 10 years ago maybe? Denn and Ono had some suggestions.