New Elise Ray allegations

[Doug1233]

Yeah my prior post speaks for itself. None of your points here answered any of the points I made in my post. Pretty much done on this one.

 

[rue_des_plantes]

You’re not making any points. “Strawmanning” is what you were very accurately accused of doing upthread, and you continue to do it here.

 

[Doug1233]

I’ve clearly made several points, the main being that there will be lots of occasions when biological sex is relevant and needs to be identified and discussed, predominantly in healthcare, sex and sports, and lots when it isn’t.

To reflect this distinction, we need vocabulary. I’ve used “biological” sex to make this distinction. What word would you use instead?

You can throw your alphabet soup of hard left acronyms at me, and call me a trans exclusionary radical feminist, all you like… But the only sphere of “exclusion” i hold is within healthcare sex and sport. These views are FAR from radical. And fuck yeah I’m a feminist.

 

[rue_des_plantes]

Sure, excluding people from healthcare, sex, and sport based on their gender identity is not a radical or unpopular view. Many Republican state legislatures are actively taking up this issue as we type, in fact. But thank you for admitting that you are, indeed, behaving in an exclusionary fashion. That’s a start.

As I was going to type to AR, the reason why the US left does not have as much of a problem with this as Europe and Canada is because transphobia is better understood by Americans to be clear intellectual property of the right, and because misogynoir in Europe makes it easy for splinters like this to show up.

Just like with being a white man who calls things “alphabet soup of hard left,” this is one of those issues where, unless you are absolutely certain you know what’s going on, it’s a good idea to look around the room and see who agrees with you and is behaving similarly. What other white men love to complain about leftists and “cancel culture,” for instance? Who’s doing what with their genitals? If you don’t like the people you’re surrounded by, it usually doesn’t make you a maverick; it’s an indication that it’s time to rethink things.

 

[rue_des_plantes]

HIPAA governs all clinically licensed or related employee behavior at any time, regardless of setting. Unless the athletes have signed releases in good faith + not under duress saying that the provider or office can share personally identifying or confidential health information (which doesn’t just mean immediate biography—it also means anything that could possibly be construed as incriminating, embarrassing, scandalous, private, etc. that isn’t an immediate or public threat, anything in their chart) with specific, named third parties, the provider cannot just fork over charts or PHI to somebody just because they’re employed by the same institution. Exceptions being something reasonable like, we need to contact your pharmacy or PCP, or a nurse or administrator in the same department is going to handle the scheduling and charting software when I’m gone. Even admins can’t go very deep into patient charts, though, without risking “breaking the glass,” and looking up charts of co-workers, students at the institution, etc. who use the facility is always deemed a “breaking the glass” situation, at least at my university medical center and state. I can’t imagine Washington State would be too different.

Now, you could have a super-shady situation like MLT/CGA where the “sports psychologist” isn’t actually a licensed clinician like a PsyD or LMSW, and what the athletes are doing is not technically clinical therapy, but time with a “life/mental coach” or “motivational speaker” that is presented as sports psych but not actually licensed or coded as such. In these cases, confidentiality goes out the window, because this is not clinical activity that falls under the purview of any professional credentialing, licensing, or ethics board organizations, nor HIPAA. This can’t be ruled out with situations like these. It is also possible that information was authorized to be communicated to trainers or PTs at Washington, and they snitched and violated HIPAA, or the release was worded vaguely, intentionally, so that Ray could be included as training staff or something. Whether this would hold up, I’m not sure, but releases made under duress do not. Apologies for all these edits, but more possible scenarios keep popping into my head.

ETA: I don’t know NCAA guidelines terribly in depth about this, but Miss Val talked about how there are also specific provisions where coaches are not allowed to interface with clinical staff or physical therapists in certain ways, like she got in trouble one time for bemoaning that somebody was out with an injury and joked that why hasn’t medicine come up with a magic cream to fix the injury? Who knows, Val is batshit, but I’m not surprised such rules exist, and it sounds like whatever was going on, it sounds like Ray was taking advantage somehow. I would also be extremely suspicious if a large patient cohort came into my office or ER and everybody wanted to sign releases to share PHI with the same third party entity, who was neither clinical staff, their attorney, nor family/partner/next-of-kin/best friend/what have you.

 

[Doug1233]

There’s not much utility in this discussion as it’s clear that neither of us wants to budge. So I’m gonna exit. However, though you mock my description of your arguments as “hard left” - there’s no denying that they ARE hard left viewpoints. Self ID in ALL respects is NOT the mainstream view even within the Democratic Party. It is literally a fringe left viewpoint.

And yes, it was an alphabet soup. I can guarantee you that 90% of the posters on here (who are, by all respects, more “woke” than the general population) had to Google what a “cishet male” was.

Anyway, I guess time will tell. In my view, self ID for EVERY facet of life goes way beyond equality.

 

[rue_des_plantes]

“Communism is when trans people self-ID in all respects” and the mainstream US Democratic Party being an appropriate calibration point for what is considered left or far-left are spectacular takes to conclude with. And, oh, no! People had to GOOGLE something! That must mean it doesn’t mean anything or doesn’t exist! Wah!

I find lots of utility in this conversation, and so do the trans and intersex fans who specifically say they don’t feel safe in forum settings. Huh, I wonder why they’d ever say that.

I don’t really care what you think about me or this conversation. The takeaway is, take trans people at their word and protect their interests when they ask you for help or ask cis people to do better. It’s that simple.

 

[Doug1233]

I DO take trans people at their word. I would never intentionally misgender someone. And I would never support rules to stop them legally changing their documents or using the bathroom they feel comfortable in.

Seeing as you refer to my 3 areas of “exclusion”, sports, healthcare and sex, I’ll expand on them each in turn:

I acknowledge that allowing trans women to compete in women’s sport could result in some really unfair outcomes. Yes, UNFAIR. Going through a male puberty and then transitioning is not just another biological advantage, akin to Michael Phelps being tall, or Pavlova having knees that bend all the way.

I acknowledge that some medical procedures designed and developed for women are NOT APPLICABLE to trans women, and that some “female” biological functions do not occur in transwomen. For example, some transwomen literally believe that they menstruate. It is not transphobic to call these transwomen delusional.

I acknowledge that a straight man, or a gay woman, may not want to have sex with a pre-op trans woman with a *****, and that this does not make them transphobic or bigoted. I’ve literally seen people criticise certain lesbians (and in one case, a rape victim) for not wanting a sexual relationship with a transwomen who has a *****. It’s mindblowing. And it makes me angry.

Other than these 3 statements, I AGREE WITH YOU, and transwomen should be regarded simply as women (and not even “trans”women) in all other respects. I am literally more “woke” to trans rights than like 95% of the general population. I find it strange that I’m on this side of the trans argument with you, as I’m usually on the other side of the debate with literally every other real life person that I’ve ever spoken to.

 

[mnesiptolema]

@ArnoldRimmer and @Doug1233, thanks for pointing out some other cases where biology matters. I cast the net too narrowly (but I still stand by my general view that it’s often brought up in instances where it doesn’t need to be).

It also seems to me that mainstream trans activism simply doesn’t hold most of the views that are being professed here by either ‘side.’ Sure, there are some people who think not wanting to have sex with a pre-op trans woman is transphobic, or that trans women menstruate, or that self-ID for the purposes of sport is fair, but they are the minority and honestly most of them are, like, teenagers on Twitter. It doesn’t strike me as an appropriate yardstick; it’s like arguing with anarcho-communists about economic policy.

 

[emmade]

I live in a fairly conservative area of Australia (our conservative has nothing on the US right though!) and this summer there was a really interesting discussion about whether or not trans women should be allowed to use the women only ocean pools. A lot of women will only swim in these pools because it is the only place they feel safe due to past experiences with men (trauma etc). Other women take their young kids to the pools as it is safer in terms of not being dumped by waves, and also so they can just swim without tops on. My personal feeling was I don’t care if a trans woman wants to swim in the pools, however I would feel uncomfortable if a trans woman who has not begun the transition process was to swim there. This is simply because of past trauma. This is my business and not a reflection on any potential trans women who want to swim there. This discussion carried on for weeks with no real resolution. Gender politics are complicated and very personal. There is never going to be 100% agreement.

 

[YurchenkoLoop]

Let women be women.

 

[ArnoldRimmer]

Glad you acknowledge the existence of left wing gender critical movements and indeed centrist too, shame it had to be done through such a North America centric lens though. There’s nothing progressive about centering the American right as you are doing here, and it clearly is the American right given that it can’t be ours. The idea that eg black immigrant women campaigning against FGM and being criticised for pointing out that this is a female, sex based form of oppression that one can’t identify in or out of are engaging in a right wing intellectual process, as happened recently, does not survive even cursory contact with reality. And I doubt most trans or NB people would have a problem with that attitude either, it seems very fringe.

I think those are all good points mnesiptolema.

eta- ironic that we’re talking about Communism here, in the UK at least the old school Communist take is very much structural analysis only. That is, they identify that female oppression is structural and sex based, that this cannot be fully identified into or out of, and that this oppression means females sometimes require separate, specific provision for reasons of welfare and representation. Now this is all true, but it’s also nowhere near being the whole story. It doesn’t make provision for people whose oppression is based on their identity, or consider how to assist people experiencing sex based oppression who don’t identify as women. Not like being a transman or NB means that all stops happening to you, after all!

 

[nog]

Wow! Is this thread even about Elise ray allegations anymore? Most of this thread belongs under another title completely…unless y’all are trying to infer that Ray is guilty of whatever this off topic thread turned into now

 

[Doug1233]

Ha you’re right! Back to Elise…

Any updates?

 

[Vanessa_Steck]

Dont @ me with the “you can’t know anything as a cis white gay man” bullshit. It doesn’t make me blind to logic and fairness. I’m not a woman either - but I’m allowed to have an opinion that defends BIOLOGICAL women in WOMEN’S sport.

this is transphobic. and gross.

 

[Doug1233]

Exhibit A. I give up.

 

[emmade]

Oh, c’mon doug…engage! It will be fun! Or are you just going to leave this after nothing more than a mere Quitters Try? I never thought of you as a quitter.

 

[irichluck21]

Can we move forward and remain on topic about Elise Ray? This was already requested by a few members.

If you wish to engage in off topic discussion, would it be possible to do it through private messages? Or create a separate thread (we can move the previous posts there) either in general gymn or about this site and feedback forums?

Please and thank you!!!

I am still looking for further evidence and haven’t found any.
With Ray resigning, it looks like this will likely not get investigated unless more gymnasts come forward with allegations, specifically with proof or detailed accounts of what happened.
So far the three people to come forward have been very vague and two are anonymous.

 

[Doug1233]

Did she give a reason for her resignation?

 

[ArnoldRimmer]

She said family considerations at the time, didn’t she? Or maybe people just filled in the gaps as she has very small kids and was moving closer to relatives.