Golgotha Files Abuse Complaint with FRG

[Sasha]

Depending on the wording gymcastic used as well, it might be that there are two questions here- did Camelia say this and did it happen? Ie are the sources saying Camelia claimed to them she'd done this or that they witnessed it. If anyone's heard it, would be great to get more info.

I heard that they had three different sources, but did these sources hear the information directly from Camelia? Or are they inferring based on circumstantial evidence? I'd like to know more about what the allegations are based on.

Though I agree that the video Denn posted (I'd never seen it before!) looks suspect AF. Even before the run, her body language doesn't look like that of a person preparing to throw a difficult vault.

 

[phoenix7]

I heard that they had three different sources, but did these sources hear the information directly from Camelia? Or are they inferring based on circumstantial evidence? I'd like to know more about what the allegations are based on.

Though I agree that the video Denn posted (I'd never seen it before!) looks suspect AF. Even before the run, her body language doesn't look like that of a person preparing to throw a difficult vault.

I agree about the body language, but I think that could also be a question of when the baulk happened (mentally): before she started or closer to the vault.

From another angle, Camelia does not look like a woman whose evil masterplan is all coming together ...



There are so many possible shades to this - like Camelia telling her to focus on beam and floor in preparation, Camelia telling her afterwards to forget the team and focus on turning in a perfect beam for her own Olympic qualifying chances, Camelia getting drunk later and admitting to not caring about the team or vault with the hindsight of knowing Sabrina had qualified either way. But in the moment, it's hard to see how an outright instruction to baulk vault would make sense.

(The Disney princess music starting up in the background makes it all horribly funny. You expect to see the camera pan to Camelia transforming into a vampire bat ...).

 

[QuietColours]

For me, this one falls into the grounds of extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

We have multiple accounts from a range of sources about the Voinea's bullying, and it matches with the behavior we see at meet and the attitudes they profess in the media. I have little trouble believing them.

Attempting to manipulate and mastermind their country's Olympic qualifications from the floor mid-meet--it sounds like something they might want to do, but it's an extraordinary claim that would be very risky to attempt, and I'll need more information before I buy a subscription.

 

[Denn]

I feel like it's not hard to see Camelia's actions in that video as some kind of "act" put on to make people "believe" it was an accident. Moreover, she certainly isn't helping Sabrina figure out what to do next — I don't think she even speaks to Sabrina, nor does she help her prepare to try to vault again, nor does she seem to be asking the vault supervisor if Sabrina can vault again. It's hard to see this as Camelia caring about the team results...

I hate to say this, but Sabrina strikes struck me as a bit happy-go-lucky little bit oblivious. She might have been none the wiser... I.e. she had a bad warm-up and maybe her mother expected problems and let them happen.

(Edits shown)

 

[MaryClare]

I feel like it's not hard to see Camelia's actions in that video as some kind of "act" put on to make people "believe" it was an accident. Moreover, she certainly isn't helping Sabrina figure out what to do next — I don't think she even speaks to Sabrina, nor does she help her prepare to try to vault again, nor does she seem to be asking the vault supervisor if Sabrina can vault again. It's hard to see this as Camelia caring about the team results...

I hate to say this, but Sabrina strikes me as a bit of a happy-go-lucky kid. She might have been none the wiser...

A happy go lucky kid that threatens people with facial disfigurement?

 

[Denn]

A happy go lucky kid that threatens people with facial disfigurement?

Sorry — I meant back then. Isn't that a more recent development

ETA — and maybe "a little bit oblivious" is better than "happy-go-lucky"?

 

[MaryClare]

Sorry — I meant back then. Isn't that a more recent development

It's more recent that we've found out about it. If anything, the Voineas should have calmed down since the foreign coaches left and Sabrina's godfather is now president of the federation. So imagine what they were like before all that...

 

[phoenix7]

I feel like it's not hard to see Camelia's actions in that video as some kind of "act" put on to make people "believe" it was an accident. Moreover, she certainly isn't helping Sabrina figure out what to do next — I don't think she even speaks to Sabrina, nor does she help her prepare to try to vault again, nor does she seem to be asking the vault supervisor if Sabrina can vault again. It's hard to see this as Camelia caring about the team results...

I hate to say this, but Sabrina strikes struck me as a bit happy-go-lucky little bit oblivious. She might have been none the wiser... I.e. she had a bad warm-up and maybe her mother expected problems and let them happen.

(Edits shown)

Yes - the bad warm up etc seems a plausible scenario. Whereas risking sabotaging your Olympic qualification with a fall in FX / relying on other teams not to meltdown or upgrade, just doesn't seem very plausible.

The idea that the Voineas are strategic geniuses who could be confident that Sabrina would make it on floor, discount her chances of doing so on vault (but not think to have her sabotage the team by hopping off beam later) doesn't tie in with any of their demonstrated abilities to work with the code and the numbers.

I wouldn't die in a ditch over this one but I'm certainly not buying it second-hand from Gymcastic.

 

[Sanzhirovka]

...If anything, the Voineas should have calmed down since the foreign coaches left and Sabrina's godfather is now president of the federation. So imagine what they were like before all that...

Depends on what you mean by "calmed down".

The previous FRG leadership was, if not trying to restrain them, at least trying to protect others from them.

Under the new leadership, they may feel they can get away with anything now.

So, while before they were doing a lot of complaining in the press to throw mud at the then leadership, now they won't feel a need to do that, but their antics behind the scenes could ratchet up.

 

[Lisaelaine80]

Sabrina just isn’t that good. Certainly not good enough to protect at the expense of the team.

 

[esta]

Depends on what you mean by "calmed down".

The previous FRG leadership was, if not trying to restrain them, at least trying to protect others from them.

Under the new leadership, they may feel they can get away with anything now.

So, while before they were doing a lot of complaining in the press to throw mud at the then leadership, now they won't feel a need to do that, but their antics behind the scenes could ratchet up.

I recall coaches Patrick and Daymon did a behind the scenes interview with Gymcastic for paying members not too long ago. If anyone has seen/heard this, did they mention anything about the Voineas, Ponor, Alina, or the conflicts going on within the Romanian team?

 

[haide]

I recall coaches Patrick and Daymon did a behind the scenes interview with Gymcastic for paying members not too long ago. If anyone has seen/heard this, did they mention anything about the Voineas, Ponor, Alina, or the conflicts going on within the Romanian team?

I don't recall they talk too much about those last time but I think Gymcastic is inviting them again. Given they've been a year out from the position and recent developments I think they will open up more this time. Yes I'll subscribe just to listen to this.

 

[haide]

Yes - the bad warm up etc seems a plausible scenario. Whereas risking sabotaging your Olympic qualification with a fall in FX / relying on other teams not to meltdown or upgrade, just doesn't seem very plausible.

The idea that the Voineas are strategic geniuses who could be confident that Sabrina would make it on floor, discount her chances of doing so on vault (but not think to have her sabotage the team by hopping off beam later) doesn't tie in with any of their demonstrated abilities to work with the code and the numbers.

I wouldn't die in a ditch over this one but I'm certainly not buying it second-hand from Gymcastic.

I'm new and just joined Gymnaverse because this seems to be the only place people have serious discussions about it. I have a Gymcastic subscription and this came up during BTS, in which the style was more of a closed-door casual sharing session - some people on R had been treating this as a 'journalistic reporting' which is ridiculous but this was how Jessica started:
'The rumor that we had heard (about Sabrina's Antwerp vault) ... I've not been able to independently confirm but I have been told by 3 sources specifically that was intentional to sabotage the team' 'I never reported before because I hadn't been able to independently verify it from sources.' 'It's a hard thing to prove so I'm hesitant to say about this but it becomes more plausible after I see what happens recently'

To me - this is an utterly impossible to verify claim because Sabrina would be the only person in the world that actually knew what happened, regardless of whether Camelia had accidentally expressed or revealed this intention to the team about it or not.

 

[Sanzhirovka]

Yeah, on this point Gymcastic should ahve kept it at:

never reported before because I hadn't been able to independently verify it from sources

Kinda shoddy for journalism

 

[phoenix7]

Thanks very much for posting that, @haide.

Having a bit of trouble parsing what Gymcastic was saying there - told by three sources specifically but not able to independently verify it? If the three sources had any real insight, that would be her independent verification surely. It's not as if she'd have to ask Sabrina and Camelia to confirm to report it, but she should explain how her sources were in a position to know.
Without that, it's just repeating gossip, and that gossip was out there at the time, based just on the optics.

 

[haide]

Thanks very much for posting that, @haide.

Having a bit of trouble parsing what Gymcastic was saying there - told by three sources specifically but not able to independently verify it? If the three sources had any real insight, that would be her independent verification surely. It's not as if she'd have to ask Sabrina and Camelia to confirm to report it, but she should explain how her sources were in a position to know.
Without that, it's just repeating gossip, and that gossip was out there at the time, based just on the optics.

Pure gossip doesn't qualify as a source and Jessica is very well connected for sure. I believe she had 3 sources saying the same but they are somehow connected so you can't also treat them as independent or corroborating. Jessica was also very careful in her framing not as being reporting as this came up in the Q&A session for 'a discussion about DNS'

 

[haide]

My overall guess of the situation to carve out a possible explanation, as I don't believe people would genuinely just like to make things up:

1) There were some really serious interviews Patrick gave to the public before Antwerp about prioritizing the team only, suggesting some very strong tensions that happened, and resulted in Camelia eventually giving in to make sure her daughter could perform and not get benched if things got really ugly. She for once did not request Sabrina to do AA as she did for Euro'23.

2) Camelia, as a truly unhinged and unsophisticated person, might have accidentally talked about or revealed her thoughts to not prioritize the team at some point, given she always couldn't restrain herself saying crazy emotional things. Camelia might also actually instructed Sabrina to scratch vault for revenge.

3) However, Sabrina's reaction was too real. I can't believe a 16-years-old girl could do that in front of so many cameras and spectators and acted really emotional afterwards. That was Oscar performance and Sabrina doesn't seem to be a good actress given we see her stunned face at Euros 25 watching Barbosu competing.

4) Sabrina had some very bad vaults before coming into Antwerp, and she also had a very weird one-touch warmup for vault right before going. My guess is that balking or barely touching vault was something that has been suggested or discussed, which messed up her mental preparation for the vault resulted in what we saw.

 

[phoenix7]

My overall guess of the situation to carve out a possible explanation, as I don't believe people would genuinely just like to make things up:

1) There were some really serious interviews Patrick gave to the public before Antwerp about prioritizing the team only, suggesting some very strong tensions that happened, and resulted in Camelia eventually giving in to make sure her daughter could perform and not get benched if things got really ugly. She for once did not request Sabrina to do AA as she did for Euro'23.

2) Camelia, as a truly unhinged and unsophisticated person, might have accidentally talked about or revealed her thoughts to not prioritize the team at some point, given she always couldn't restrain herself saying crazy emotional things. Camelia might also actually instructed Sabrina to scratch vault for revenge.

3) However, Sabrina's reaction was too real. I can't believe a 16-years-old girl could do that in front of so many cameras and spectators and acted really emotional afterwards. That was Oscar performance and Sabrina doesn't seem to be a good actress given we see her stunned face at Euros 25 watching Barbosu competing.

4) Sabrina had some very bad vaults before coming into Antwerp, and she also had a very weird one-touch warmup for vault right before going. My guess is that balking or barely touching vault was something that has been suggested or discussed, which messed up her mental preparation for the vault resulted in what we saw.

Yes. That is exactly the kind of scenario I can imagine too.