Scoring at 2023 World Championships

[FrolovasDoubleLayout]

I loked at the E-scores for all events except VT, because, well…VT. VTers are bunched like grapes during a Tuscany vineyard at harvest!

E-scores over 8,0 are still hard to come by.
UB - 16/153
BB - 11/152
FX - 14/151

Is the state of execution of elements/connections that bad - except for VT where obviously almost EVERYONE has stellar execution to score over 8,0.

Comments?

 

[cftmoonlight79]

No. I think the E scores are ridiculously low. But it doesnt much matter as long as they are consistent.

 

[FrolovasDoubleLayout]

It does though, because athletes and coaches seem to be working towards some mythical ‘Holy Grail’ E-score that may not exist.

 

[onodian]

I don’t particularly care if E scores are 8s or 6s, as long as they’re consistent and differentiate, which i would argue they do better but could be better still.

But when i watch now i find i can mostly predict the general score (better/ worse than the one before, for example), which i feel is a good metric at least?

 

[makam]

Do you all think having 2 sets of judging panels would ever work? My thought would be you would get a score from the in person judges (the snap score) and they would have like a max if 1 or 2 minutes to provide it, none of this 5 minute dithering. If you are happy with that score you keep it and it becomes your official score, no takesie backsies. If you disagree with the snap score, you can get it rescored by video replay judges with the caveat that it could go up or down in D and/or E. The snap score stays there temporarily but with a *. And the rescore might not work through the queue for an hour. So you won’t be able to adjust your next routine because you have no idea what your mark is.

Whenever we did the live scoring sheet here, the judges got their scores entered within moments of the routine ending and were usually within a few tenths of each other and the final official score (some particular gymnasts excepted).

It feels like a two step process could speed things along (or gum it up if most aren’t content with their snap scores, though i think most feel that allowing closer scrutiny will usually result in more deductions being found) and the video review judges wouldn’t have to be local. It could be an online portal.

 

[navyblue]

Is the state of execution of elements/connections that bad

A resounding NO! I was thinking about this as it pertains to Uneven Bars, where we are seeing some stunning, virtuosic performance from the likes of Shilese Jones and Kaylia Nemour and Qiu Qiyuan – and the judges are being stricter than the already strict guidelines written into the CoP on things like kip cast handstands (which are basically the equivalent of roundoffs on bars, yet for some reason get picked apart to death by judges).

On the one hand, it is true that scores don’t have any intrinsic value, only relative value, and we should all just get over our nostalgia for the 10.0, but it still does make me mad when it’s obvious (I busted out my freaking digital protractor) that judges are doing wrong by a gymnast like Kaylia Nemour coming up with a freaking 7.9 E score on her bars.

Can someone fact check me on this?
Top E score on Vault: 9.366 by Simon Biles
Top E score on Bars: 8.433 by Shilese Jones
Top E score on Beam: 8.433 by Sanne Wevers
Top E score on Floor: 8.266 by Vera Van Pol…

VT where obviously almost EVERYONE has stellar execution to score over 8,0.

I think you’re being sarcastic… but I mean it makes a certain sense to me that vault scores highest. It is essentially a single skill and there’s only so many deductions you can take. Two comments there though:

1. The value of being a superlative vaulter has been intentionally diminished it seems …Arguably, the single most superlative difficulty in this entire field is Simone’s Yurchenko Double Pike, but you wouldn’t know that by comparing D scores across events, where several routines on Bars and Beam equal or best that. On the one hand, all events being ‘equal’ it’s not fair. On the other hand, vault is like 6 seconds of gymnastics so maybe it is fair.** Same deal with E scores, where the benefit of being a vaulter like Rebeca Andrade is relatively less because you might score only 4-5 tenths higher than a very mediocre vaulter.
2. If you wanted to change this fact, you could make landing deductions more significant. I think the subjective impact of a stick is not properly rewarded right now, when it’s only 1 tenth separation from a vault with a hop. You could do that either by adding a stick bonus or making any foot movement start at 3 tenths.

 

[ruby]

I don’t think landing deductions should necessarily be greater on vault. What makes a vault stand out besides height and form, is the ability to clearly separate contact/push off from 2nd flight phase and preparation of the landing in the air. Rebecca’s Cheng is a prime example for that. Yes, she scores better but the mastery she has of this vault is not rewarded. The deductions for pre-twisting/drilling a twist into the mat/… should be far greater. I know for sure that the human eye cannot differentiate that well enough so that’s where computerized judging should be used.

Also a fall should be a ND for EF.

 

[navyblue]

Agree with this as well.

I’ll simplify my point: I think the difference between a stuck and a not stuck vault should be greater, not less than the difference between a giant swing 1/1 that ends at 29 degrees vs. 31 degrees from handstand. And today, it is not.

 

[onodian]

where the benefit of being a vaulter like Rebeca Andrade is relatively less because you might score only 4-5 tenths higher than a very mediocre vaulter.

I mean, not that she’s a mediocre vaulter by any chance, but tokyo AA VTs back to back Andrade / Carey is all you need to know about vt scoring, really.

 

[navyblue]

Here’s a routine I think should have garnered a much higher E score but barely surpassed 8.0

 

[KristyJ]

I don’t feel like it’s impossible for the human eye to differentiate twisting off the table or into the floor from a clean block or landing. I regularly see the difference. However, even though I haven’t judged in an official capacity in a few years now (thanks pandemic), I also did for a bit of time, and the practice and training does help.

 

[Aeris]

Here’s a routine I think should have garnered a much higher E score but barely surpassed 8.0

One of the most egregious judging results lately. It’s not possible to only give 8.0 for Aleah’s routine, I went through it with a fine tooth comb, the deductions have to be fabricated to get there. What they said here is “you’re a nobody, so we’ll take more artistry and form deductions than what exists. How can we give you the 8.5+ you deserve when we rarely/never give that to top competitors.” It’s the overall best executed FX of the competition so far, along with Andrade’s team final.

 

[Hatsumomo]

Can our forum judges go over Zhang’s BB routine and see how the judges got a 6.9 E score for a routine that didn’t have a fall nor skanky form? I’m not entirely over that; it’s not like I’m a fan of Zhang but a sub-7 score with no falls is crazy to me.

 

[onodian]

Can our forum judges go over Zhang’s BB routine and see how the judges got a 6.9 E score for a routine that didn’t have a fall nor skanky form? I’m not entirely over that; it’s not like I’m a fan of Zhang but a sub-7 score with no falls is crazy to me.

Yeah i also rewatched this and do not understand, even though i don’t particularly b like her bb work

 

[blake]

I think they considered the landing on the Yurchenko Loop to be a fall.

 

[Denn]

Watching with a thorough awareness of how the judges are perceiving the execution makes me feel like complete shit.

@FrolovasDoubleLayout I genuinely feel that the judges have developed an echo chamber where all legs are bent, natural body shape is irrelevant, no split is sufficient, all landings are deficient, etc. They see errors where the errors don’t exist.

And worse, the rules themselves are set up so that the most minute errors all get hit 0.1. I’m sorry, but a 1 inch separation of the legs in a double layout should not be a deduction. Who. Cares. And it’s worse in WAG right now than MAG, where it’s not only better now but slated to get better in the next cycle, where the rules are being relaxed.

Frankly, I sometimes think that the entire WTC needs to be dismissed and replaced by people who are reasonable and don’t think that human beings should be held to this level of robotic-like execution. Execution judging was last reasonable and fair somewhere around 2008, except artistry, which is actually convoluted with things that don’t matter (e.g., a flowing leap series connected by 87 chassés), albeit on a better pathway than it was then.

@Hatsumomo @onodian Can you post the video in question? Let’s break it down.

@navyblue Finnegan’s floor was executed VERY well. That legit should have earned over 9.0 in my opinion.

 

[blake]

I was shocked by Simone’s E score in QF/TF compared to Shilese cause the leg sep on the Maloney is so large, and her foot form is not as good as it used to be, but her routine is incredibly economical. She doesn’t do a single unnecessary skill, so she can still get a mid 8 E score even if she’s not as technically perfect or pleasant to watch as Shilese.

 

[Denn]

We’re still at a point where there is no clear meaning of what a 7.9 E-score represents. It’s just deductions. That’s it. It doesn’t mean that 79% of possible execution points were earned. There’s no holistic meaning to a 8.0ish score. It’s not consistent across apparatus. And 7.9 in 2023 is a decent performance — one we might even call a “hit routine”, whereas 7.9 only 4 years ago was NOT a hit exercise.

It’s irresponsible and shows that the judge community just does not understand how numbers can align to meanings.

 

[KristyJ]

Watching with a thorough awareness of how the judges are perceiving the execution makes me feel like complete shit.

Finnegan’s floor was executed VERY well. That legit should have earned over 9.0 in my opinion.

What’s worse is that the blunt instrument of .1, .3, .5 frequently doesn’t differentiate where it should. Perhaps that 1" leg separation should be .05, or perhaps it should be disregarded, but it shouldn’t be .1 when a 5" separation that shouldn’t be ignored will likely also be .1.

Speaking of leg separations, I get Aleah down to about 8.2 if I take the tenth for the leg separation every handspring (to be fair, when the angle allows me to see it, it does seem to be there), and also to be harsher with artistry deductions than I want to be, but really I don’t want to go that low.

I agree with the comment about the judging echo chamber where you start seeing the deduction if you even feel it sort of might be there. Is it a bent leg or a strong calf? When in doubt, bent leg. Heck, I think even fans who’ve worked to pick up judging fall prey to that because the code encourages it to a degree.

 

[onodian]

Here´s Zhang at 13:50

https://allgymnastics.tv/videos/3721306/womens-team-final-rotation-2

But granted, it’s impossible to judge with these angles. The switch 1/2 does look like it might have been gnarly, but again, impossible to know from the side. It’s still 6.9 and I don’t think she has one wobble. And she’s not even the most egregious Chinese pauser.