FX EF INQUIRY (Jordan Chiles Stripped Of Bronze Medal/USAG launches appeal) PART 2

[rlayt]

Traditions. Cultural expectations. The attributes people desire in women vs. men. And yet I like watching Andrew Chupp do gymnastics on women’s’ events.

 

[JaJa]

Cultural expectations. The attributes people desire in women vs. men.

Agreed. And I honestly find this disturbing. (This is meant to inspire some thoughtful conversation on this issue)

 

[RedBirdie]

I don’t know why so many elite gymnasts today completely lack confidence of movement. They genuinely look awkward

I can't speak to other countries, but in the US, for the word go, we do a terrible job. Very few gyms provide any level of dance instruction. The DP compulsory routines are just pose-pose-pose. Even worse, many places are now using XCEL to completely skip compulsories which means even less attention is paid to choreography. It's just awful. (it is also completely against the spirit of Xcel, but that's another tangent)

The day is coming where we see a kid who skipped DP compulsories, did a handful of level 8 and 9 meets while largely focusing on HOPES, and moves into elite with absolutely zero foundation. Their skills will be terrifying and their quality of movement will make us weep.

 

[eanda]

I don’t know why so many elite gymnasts today completely lack confidence of movement. They genuinely look awkward

This really stood out to me watching the U.S. Classic over the weekend. What I remember from my previous years watching the sport, even gymnasts lacking strong choreography, execution, and dance skills (think Raisman) still carried themselves and presented the routine rather than just going through motions.

 

[MaryClare]

I can't speak to other countries, but in the US, for the word go, we do a terrible job. Very few gyms provide any level of dance instruction. The DP compulsory routines are just pose-pose-pose. Even worse, many places are now using XCEL to completely skip compulsories which means even less attention is paid to choreography. It's just awful. (it is also completely against the spirit of Xcel, but that's another tangent)

The day is coming where we see a kid who skipped DP compulsories, did a handful of level 8 and 9 meets while largely focusing on HOPES, and moves into elite with absolutely zero foundation. Their skills will be terrifying and their quality of movement will make us weep.

Hmm. Thats sort of it, but slightly different.

What I’m talking about doesn’t really require dance training, nice feet or good posture. It’s like…they can’t move? These are athletes with spacial awareness and motor skills far beyond the average person.

I also don’t think that there have been any major changes within the various developmental programs in the US. But it has only been in the last few years that I’ve noticed it far more frequently. As you know, SB genuinely shocked me.

I’m not expecting Irina Baraksanova, just that elite gymnasts can look towards their arms when they move them rather than down at the floor

 

[MaryClare]

This really stood out to me watching the U.S. Classic over the weekend. What I remember from my previous years watching the sport, even gymnasts lacking strong choreography, execution, and dance skills (think Raisman) still carried themselves and presented the routine rather than just going through motions.

Exactly. It doesn’t need to be pretty, meaningful or entertaining. It just needs to be less jerky than Knightsbridge curve on the Piccadilly line

 

[MaryClare]

Why is there so much concern over "artistry" in WAG but not in MAG, where the emphasis is all on power, acrobatics and athleticism? Why the difference in the core values of WAG and MAG?

I think there is concern, the problem is they think it can be solved by a wobbly Y stand.

MAG used to be a lot more artistic. But so did WAG. But WAG has always been more artistic than MAG.

In Russia we don’t call it artistic gymnastics anyway, we call it sporting gymnastics.

 

[KristyJ]

I don’t know why so many elite gymnasts today completely lack confidence of movement. They genuinely look awkward

I often think back to learning the 2000s compulsories in a judging course, and Cheryl Hamilton saying "we give them just enough ballet to get by." That struck me as short-sighted then and continues to now.

Also, honestly, the upcoming athletes remind me a lot of the athletes from Stars a decade ago in movement style.... where Dan Baker coached. Lacking lift and lightness in movement quality (which does not require any specific body type).

 

[arabiandoublefront]

Yeah, I was thinking about this while I was at the U.S. Classic because we're now decades out of having elite compulsories. I used to not care, but it seems to be getting more and more obvious that U.S. elite gymnasts lack the fundamentals they once had. And it's like I'm the last person who thinks that every floor routine needs to have elegance as a theme, but arm waving isn't the only choreography out there and it isn't what makes someone elegant. I also don't think ballet is the only solution.

 

[KristyJ]

I really hope Betty Okino brings a fresh perspective over time, but it may be a many years long project

 

[Puffin]

They really need to change the lower level codes to reward artistry and deduct the lack of it. At the moment the emphasis seems to be chucking skills to skip to the next level and by the time they get to elite it's too late.

 

[MaryClare]

The lack of compulsories is NOT the problem here. I’m pro compulsories, but this is a different issue that isn’t solved by compulsories (or ballet).

Nothing in the US program has especially changed, but in this particular area, the standard has deteriorated sharply in recent years.

 

[MaryClare]

They really need to change the lower level codes to reward artistry and deduct the lack of it. At the moment the emphasis seems to be chucking skills to skip to the next level and by the time they get to elite it's too late.

They don’t properly deduct for it at elite level…

 

[Passion]

I really hope Betty Okino brings a fresh perspective over time, but it may be a many years long project

Betty Okino has been on the National Team Staff as the person in charge of dance and artistry for the past seven years.

For about as long as Dan Baker was the developmental lead, Okino has been in charge of dance.

 

[MaryClare]

Betty Okino has been on the National Team Staff as the person in charge of dance and artistry for the past seven years.

For about as long as Dan Baker was the developmental lead, Okino has been in charge of dance.

It makes me laugh when people think that because someone with a personal reputation for xyz, suddenly things are going to be different.

Omelianchik’s coach has been one of USAG’s most senior technical advisors for decades.

It’s the system. It’s always the system.

 

[makam]

The thing is, with gymnasts trending older, you'd think they would look around, compare their results/routines and say to their coach "this needs to be better, what do we do." It is one thing for kids and juniors to lack awareness but if you are doing gymnastics in your 20s, you have made it a career and advancing often means developing new skills--or faking it. I've never taken ballet, but if pressed, I think I could hold my arms like a ballerina does, at least enough to not be 100% awkward. Like we get that Jade isn't a natural dancer, but at this point she should be either able to fake it or have a choreographer who can design a routine that makes the awkwardness part of the movement.