Ask an Expert Judge, (aka the misc. technical questions thread)

[YurchenkoLoop]

Steingruber. Izbasa’s were also pretty dynamite and Iordache’s were solid



Ferrera’s looks about fully rotated. Surely a precision deduction on landing. Yes, this is just another excuse to share one of my favorite floor routines

 

[Denn]

Gogean herself also got it around.

 

[navyblue]

I was joking, y’all.** You know who gets Gogeans all the way around? Simone Biles.

**I was joking about it not having been invented yet, but I was sincere in my belief that Gogean herself didnt actually complete it (by today’s standard), but just watched two of her painfully boring routines and she didnt even attempt the leap, Share the routine where she originated it when you have a moment pls. @Denn

 

[onodian]

At around 5:00

I actually enjoy gogean’s fx routines mostly

 

[Denn]

Also here (early on in the video)

 

[Aeris]

Neither of those Gogeans from Gogean are landed fully backwards

 

[navyblue]

Yikes, Shilese got yanked down to 5.5 D score on floor in the team final.

She must’ve got her hop full downgraded yet again :roll_eyes: and her attempted triple L turn marked down all the way to a single L turn. Not good.

 

[KristyJ]

The twist timing doesn’t matter once you’re in the air, but when you jump sideways onto the table, the body is initially in a different plane. If you keep twisting past 1/4 on the entry, before the legs get past vertical, you turn backwards (Tsuk). When you stay at 1/4 coming off the table and then continue twisting you turn forwards (Kas).

You do realize that “twisting on the table” has never been an encouraged (or efficient) technique? The FIG would not put a vault into the code with that as the intention.

 

[Aeris]

You do realize that “twisting on the table” has never been an encouraged (or efficient) technique? The FIG would not put a vault into the code with that as the intention.

I’ve not said the code should encourage twisting on the table? Exactly the opposite, Tsuk should be seen as 1/2 directly onto the table and deducted for doing noticeably less (a little leeway is okay, a good 1/2-on entry may still have a tiny bit of twist happening onto the table and not be a perfect 1/2 rotation on).

As it stands, twisting on the table is already allowed without penalty for Tsuk. It’s seen as a backward vault with “1/4 to 1/2” in first flight. If less than 1/2 is happening in first flight, there’s going to be some twist happening on the table to get into backwards position.

Every Tsuk double salto vault ever competed twists significantly on the table. That technique honestly may be necessary to do a Tsuk double salto. It’s the kind of thing where we should coach it that way, but it’s correct for the code to deduct it still, because Tsuk vault receiving a higher start value already negates the deduction.

 

[Denn]

Tsuk should be seen as 1/2 directly onto the table and deducted for doing noticeably less (a little leeway is okay, a good 1/2-on entry may still have a tiny bit of twist happening onto the table and not be a perfect 1/2 rotation on).

This is such a ridiculous claim. No, it should NOT be seen this way at all. In fact, it’s quite possible that NOBODY has ever done a Tsuk double back with more than a quarter turn. Even tsuks with a single salto aren’t usually taught with a half turn by anyone who knows what the hell they are doing.

A bunch of block positions for Tsuk double backs that show how absurd this claim is.

 

[Aeris]

I don’t know why you’re posting a million screenshots of people’s hands first touching the table. There is still more twist happening on the table after that point. Look at their body positions right as they actually leave the table.

In fact, it’s quite possible that NOBODY has ever done a Tsuk double back with more than a quarter turn.

In terms of turn directly on the table, yes. I was addressing that already, how a Tsuk double probably shouldn’t even be attempted with a direct 1/2-on. If someone does ever manage to do it though, then it deserves to be rewarded, as it does for normal Tsuks.

 

[KristyJ]

I’ve not said the code should encourage twisting on the table? Exactly the opposite, Tsuk should be seen as 1/2 directly onto the table and deducted for doing noticeably less (a little leeway is okay, a good 1/2-on entry may still have a tiny bit of twist happening onto the table and not be a perfect 1/2 rotation on).

As it stands, twisting on the table is already allowed without penalty for Tsuk. It’s seen as a backward vault with “1/4 to 1/2” in first flight. If less than 1/2 is happening in first flight, there’s going to be some twist happening on the table to get into backwards position.

Every Tsuk double salto vault ever competed twists significantly on the table. That technique honestly may be necessary to do a Tsuk double salto. It’s the kind of thing where we should coach it that way, but it’s correct for the code to deduct it still, because Tsuk vault receiving a higher start value already negates the deduction.

Frankly, no, it should not be coached that way. Forgive me if this is blunt, but that will kill vault height and possibly result in injury.
Twist on the table is incidental to technique or the result of wrong technique and usually detrimental. You want to be as quick as possible into and out of the block, and you want your momentum to maintain the forward direction/convert it upwards.

 

[Aeris]

There have been numerous Tsuks with good height that do direct 1/2 onto the table. It’s harder to a Yurchenko 1/2 with a direct 1/2, but that’s still the expectation. It’s also harder to maintain a perfect layout position, and might injure someone if they try to land without piking down, but that’s still the expectation. How it’s coached should be determined by what’s deemed safely achievable for the individual athlete.

Shoutout to Alexa Moreno today, doing almost 1/2 directly onto the table for her Tsuk. It looked so much nicer than a Kas and it’s a shame she doesn’t get rewarded for this higher level of difficulty.

 

[onodian]

it’s a shame she doesn’t get rewarded for this higher level of difficulty.

AMEN

 

[Denn]

Shoutout to Alexa Moreno today, doing almost 1/2 directly onto the table for her Tsuk. It looked so much nicer than a Kas and it’s a shame she doesn’t get rewarded for this higher level of difficulty.

Um, you again show you don’t understand the difference between Tsuks and Kas vaults. Moreno doesn’t do Kas vaults because she has a right sidespring entry and a left twist.

And frankly, if she twisted a little less onto the table, she could get a better block and still have time to complete the twist — with fewer height, distance, dynamics, and form deductions. It’s biomechanics.

 

[Aeris]

If she did less twist directly onto the table it would be easier and look worse, thus should be worth less. Same reason why form deductions and different ratings exist everywhere else. It’s biomechanically more difficult to do a double layout compared to a double pike, hence it’s worth more. Don’t see anyone arguing yurchenko 1/2’s should be allowed as 1/4-on without deduction.

I’m aware Moreno has different entry and twist directions. Tsuk can and has been performed without changing the direction, that’s not a requisite for doing a Tsuk. Someone can do Moreno’s same 1/2 right entry and keep twisting to the right in the air, if that’s their natural twist direction. We just never see it anymore because Kas is easier, while being rated the same, so why would anyone bother.

Like I was saying, it’s also possible to reverse direction after a Kas entry, but that’s more difficult. People will feasibly just compete a Tsuk if their entry and twist are opposite, but that’s not what defines the vault family. (it would be interesting to see reverse direction Kas in the code though; 1/4-on and 1/4 twist in the opposite direction in the air, creating a backward landing, would actually deserve a higher rating than the usual Kas with 1/4-on and then 1/4 in the air in the same direction to land forward…a vault which itself still doesn’t exist in the WAG code, or would incorrectly be called as a Tsuk 1/2).

 

[navyblue]

it would be easier and look worse, thus should be worth less.

So, it is well within the history of technical committees to be what @Denn calls “busy body” rules about the platonic ideal of any given skill, often in ways that ignore the biomechanics of gymnastics. I think about this a lot as it pertains to the relatively new idea that pirouettes on UB/HB need to end in handstand, just… because.

Anyway, I think this debate ought to underscore that difficulty for difficulty’s sake is not necessarily something that should be encouraged by the code. It ought to be a bit more of a dictionary, in that it codifies and responds to natural progressions of difficulty in the sport rather than playing too heavy a hand in creating its own set of incentives/imperatives – which privileges the opinions over the crusty FIG know-it-alls over the gymnasts. This is basically the same debate one encounters in linguistics regarding prescriptive versus descriptive grammar.

Insisting that gymnasts must complete a 1/2 turn entry because it’s “harder” (true, but so what?) or “looks better” (disagree) or “is just correct” (nope) is way too prescriptive for my taste, even as we could provide many dozen more examples of how this is not how gymnasts perform the vault in reality.

 

[Aeris]

Tsuk has been competed hundreds of times as direct 1/2 onto the table though. With good air form and landings. Why should people not get credit for doing that? Nobody is forcing everyone to do it that way. The people who don’t will just be deducted. The same as people who benefit from the higher start value of a yurchenko 1/2 should be deducted for not doing that entry ideally (or are you arguing they shouldn’t be?)

 

[Sanzhirovka]

Does anyone have access to the Draft 2025-2028 Code?

 

[navyblue]

Can anyone figure out Kaliya lincoln’s beam EF score? Video here:



Triple wolf - E
Bhs + Layout - B+E (+.1 cv)
Front aerial: D, 0.4 (broken connection)
Split + straddle: B+B +0
Switch leap + switch half: C+D (+.1 cv)
Side aerial: D +0.4
Bhs + bhs + double pike: B+B+E (+0.1 sb)
E, E, E, D, D, D, C, B = 3.2 +0.3 cv/sb + 2.0 CR +0.2 dismount bonus = 5.7

She was given 5.4… If they downgraded her layout, that would be 1 tenth off. If they also didn’t credit her switch leap combo – which would be very odd, that would bring her down to 5.5 lowest.