Women's Gymnastics needs to end "Busybody Downgrading"

[Denn]

Under the leadership of Nellie Kim, the Women's Technical Committee (WTC) decided in 2006 to be ruthless about recognizing elements: anything a little short of twist or body position — even if it was entirely clear what element was being attempted — would be downgraded by the difficulty judges (D-panel), and often also deducted by the execution judges (E-panel).

As a result, every major competition includes a litany of downgrades, unexpected difficulty scores (D-scores), and inquiries by coaches. Many of those inquiries are accepted during review and many are not. Moreover, over the years, the WTC has changed the downgrade rules over and over — we won't downgrade a twisting leap if it connects to another leap. No wait, we won't. You have to get it all the way around. No wait, we'll let you be 30° short. (Get out your protractors, people!) We'll look at the front foot. No wait, we'll look at the shoulders and hips.

They also adjust what constitutes layout vs. pike or tucked every five minutes.

This happens to a much lesser extent in men's gymnastics, where gymnasts are usually given credit for the elements they plainly are attempting and the E-panel, judging execution, decides whether to deduct for undertwisting or poor body shape. This is a FAR better approach because it means fewer inquiries but also has a mechanism for judges getting too aggressive or too gentle — their penalties are averaged with other judges.

It's high time the WTC — if they survive the shitshow they have created through their faulty leadership in the event finals of the 2024 Olympics — take responsibility for their busbody rules and fix them.

Thoughts?

 

[Passion]

Donatella Sacci is running unopposed for WTC president in October, so it's unlikely anything will change.

 

[FrolovasDoubleLayout]

Instruction at a MYTHICAL FIG judging course:

- "Was it a switch ring?"
-- "Yes"

• 'Great, it's a C."
• "Was it a really good one (meeting all requirements)?"

-- "Yes"
-- "Great! 0,00 in deductions"


- "Was it a switch ring?"
-- "Yes"

• 'Great, it's a C."
• "Was it a really good one (meeting all requirements)?"

-- "It was okay, maybe a bit more ring shape"
-- "Okay! 0,10 in deductions"

- "Was it a switch ring?"
-- "Yes"

• 'Great, it's a C."
• "Was it a really good one (meeting all requirements)?"

-- "It was a bit messy. Needed more ring and a higher front leg"
-- "Okay! 0,30 in deductions"

- "Was it a switch ring?"
-- "Yes"

• 'Great, it's a C."
• "Was it a really good one (meeting all requirements)?"

-- "Well, it looked like a switch leg leap with a bent back leg and missing some split"
-- "Okay! 0,50 in deductions"


Credit the intention and have the E-panel take the appropriate deductions.
The Reference judges have been replaced with two more E-judges so there is a better chance of (after dropping the two high and two low) having the appropriate deductions applied.


If coaches and athletes want to push for difficulty, either do it well or be aware of the potential E-score consequences.

 

[Denn]

Exactly! Yet, the rules led to a lot of "Ceci n'est pas un switch ring" moments. Grrr..

 

[onodian]

Yeah I don't like this approach. Although I feel the biggest problem is the dance elements, if this was all about an underrotated triple twist it would at least feel less completely absurd and inane.

Although I did get pretty fucking mad when they downgraded Cheng's amanar in 2006 so, maybe y'all are right full stop.

 

[MaryClare]

The problem really, and why there is such disparity between WAG and MAG, is because women f*cking love this shit

 

[FrolovasDoubleLayout]

The problem really, and why there is such disparity between WAG and MAG, is because women f*cking love this shit

The Real Housewives of the FIG!

 

[MaryClare]

The Real Housewives of the FIG!

In episode 2, Donatella is stressed following a CAS hearing, whilst Lyubov celebrates her granddaughter becoming a 3rd generation national team member

 

[dweiss324]

I wouldn't have been able to imagine a world in which the intention to separate D and E didn't lead to "try a skill, get an appropriately logical deduction"... Until we started living in this nightmare.

 

[RedBirdie]

I get the downgrading, I really do. I lived through the epidemic of WOGA "triples." My problem is the D panel downgrading a skill while the E panel ruthlessly deducts the skill that was attempted, double penalizing athletes. Maaaaaybe, if after nearly 20 years of open ended code we saw that this resulted in gymnasts only do skills the can cleanly and consistently execute, I'd be okay with it, but that's not been the case.

We have gymnasts throwing as much difficulty as possible because the code is so utterly broken. The E panels have not be able to adequately separate gymnasts, so gymnasts and their coaches decide to go to bigger D scores. And of course, you can always appeal a D score and hope the judges well give you another tenth or two. Can't do that with E scores. It's a very logical strategy.

That said, can someone PLEASE fix Alice Kinsella's floor construction? There's going for high D, and then there's just plain fucking stupid routine construction.

 

[J175]

I feel like this is related to the E score bunching we see. A fully rotated turn or whatever doesn't get any E score benefit over one that's short. The downgrades effectively function as an execution deduction to make up for those the E panel aren't taking.

They need to fix both, D and E, but I feel like with current E scoring stopping the downgrades would just lead to everyone doing rubbish dance elements to rack up the D score.

 

[MaryClare]

I get the downgrading, I really do. I lived through the epidemic of WOGA "triples." My problem is the D panel downgrading a skill while the E panel ruthlessly deducts the skill that was attempted, double penalizing athletes. Maaaaaybe, if after nearly 20 years of open ended code we saw that this resulted in gymnasts only do skills the can cleanly and consistently execute, I'd be okay with it, but that's not been the case.

We have gymnasts throwing as much difficulty as possible because the code is so utterly broken. The E panels have not be able to adequately separate gymnasts, so gymnasts and their coaches decide to go to bigger D scores. And of course, you can always appeal a D score and hope the judges well give you another tenth or two. Can't do that with E scores. It's a very logical strategy.

That said, can someone PLEASE fix Alice Kinsella's floor construction? There's going for high D, and then there's just plain fucking stupid routine construction.

In the BBC broadcast, Christine mentioned that they will have to rethink Alice’s tumbles.

But that is GB floor all over. They neither go for high E or high D. They try something in the middle and it rarely works

 

[Denn]

I feel like with current E scoring stopping the downgrades would just lead to everyone doing rubbish dance elements to rack up the D score.

The whole point is that the E-panel would have a new deduction to penalize incomplete elements — the same deductions that MAG has, and which have worked well for a long time.