UCLA, Alexis Jeffery, gymnasts calling out athletic director

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Look I don’t want any of us all to fall out over this. I just would like it if we could all just have a considered and nuanced debate without insults or accusations being flung around. Sorry if I’ve gotten too heated in my responses too. I usually enjoy our debates on here but this one started to not be fun.
 
Don’t leave. Maybe we should have a break from this thread for a bit, mods?

The irony is that I think we are all appalled at the language it seems Alexis has used.

We seem to just be conflicted over the rap song part. But if the other allegations are true then the rap song bit is completely blown over by the other stuff. There are bigger fish to fry, it seems.
 
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We are all adults and recognize the need for a thoughtful pause to think. Let’s take a deep breath.
 
Ok everyone… time to test out “slow mode”. Everyone is now allowed 1 post per hour. The definition of this feature from the software is below…
To promote thoughtful discussion in fast moving or contentious discussions, users must wait before posting again in this topic.
 
Yall keep arguing about the song when it has been revealed that Alexis used the word several other times AND ranked the girls off their appearance and body shape and put the black girls at the bottom on purpose, basically calling the ugly. The rap song is irrelevant now.

Also is there any proof that the hazing and bullying ever happened? Yall keep saying that people are jumping to conclusions about Alexis all while spreading that hazing rumor. You guys are hypocrites.
 
I certainly did not intend to cause you to leave the Discussion. But you were cursing and yelling at people in a discussion that while difficult and controversial had been very polite and respectful. And as far as your taking offense at my “mocking” you indirectly, had you not previously done precisely the same thing to me when you wrote to Doug “Anyone is free to use the “ignore/block” feature on me. It’s the best act of self care you can do for yourself.”?

Personally, I tend to never engage directly with people who use cursing as a form of argument or discourse. I just find it offensive. And I honestly found your tone bullying. In difficult, controversial conversations I think it is especially important to keep emotions in check, argue to the facts and point, and avoid the use of invective and/or other harsh words. But when you yourself raise the heat, I don’t see how you can complain when others turn (a gentler form of) heat on you.

Now, like Doug, I think we might all choose to take a breather.
 
The ranking of the girls by looks is a new wrinkle. That’s some real Mean Girls energy there. Jeffrey is going to be a problem wherever she goes, and not just because of the casual racism. Why on earth would LSU take that headache on? She can’t be that good of a gymnast, can she? How aware was LSU of all these issues before accepting her?

I believe in second chances, but if she never apologized to her UCLA teammates, then she isn’t ready for a second chance.
 
If it is true that Alexis used the N Word in conversation prior to that rap song incident, personally I think that alone would or should be grounds for dismissal. No NCAA or team for her. Period. Apology or no apology. But did it actually happen? I find it odd that these clearly much more serious allegations only arose as seeming afterthoughts after the rap song incident.

As for the ranking of girls by beauty etc that is very very very unacceptable and might not be grounds for dismissal but should have been addressed. I would need to know who was involved? Etc etc. and if indeed the black girls were ranked last it can not be assumed it was because of their race. But this should have been looked into and if it was going on then addressed directly. Another place where a restorative justice approach could have been employed.

But the question keeps coming back to “where were the grown ups”? You let problems fester they get worse and then things get out of hand.

And that is what happened. And the facts will likely never be known, we will just hear allegations and accusations on social media. But this sort of thing can never ever just be assumed to be true. Nothing takes the place of real fact finding.
 
I think this is an interesting read.


“As we went through the process of fact-finding, it became apparent that both the transferring student athlete, as well as several of the gymnasts from her previous institution, told the same story. Several of them reached out to our team members to let them know what had occurred. The information received from all parties is contrary to many of the statements being made on the internet and social media.”

People seem to be completely ignoring what is implied in that quote that has been implied by others.

Also of note, Jeffry identified herself as Asian/PI before finding the can of sardines in her bag. The can turned out to be an Asian brand (I’m assuming pure coincidence) but there could be serious implications at play.
 
The article doesn’t say anything I haven’t already read. I still don’t see any attribution for the talk about Jeffrey receiving sardines. Or bleach on her clothes. So it’s still unfounded.
 
Maybe an unpopular opinion: as of what I understand right now, Frazier is acting like a brat outing that she wants the coaches gone. Maybe she should be gone. She playes innocent in this but it looks like she is not by a long shot. Going off of second hand information is always a fine line. Asking for coaches to be gone, sorry that is just an entitlement that I cannot get behind. Same as her disclaming HER team, who made her the queen of Sheba?
Totally aware that I do not know the whole story and also go on second, third, and fourth hand information 😂 Just a feeling then I guess. She just annoys me in this matter, though she was one of my favorites of the UCLA team 😳
 
She wants the coaches who told her it would be her fault if Jeffrey killed herself gone, and you think she looks like a brat? Yikes, Dex.

God forbid she refers to the team that she’s a part of as “her team.” I guess Biles, Raisman, Melnikova, and basically every other gymnast, elite or not, are entitled.
 
IF that happened I will eat my words, no worries, so far it is just Marz stirring things up
 
I listened to the podcast. The coaches didn’t say that the girls would be at fault, but rather the coaches themselves would be at fault if she took her own life. At least that’s how it came across to me.
 
I listened again and it sounds like you’re right, Gymmama. I misinterpreted the antecedent of “their.” That being said, I obviously still argue against the idea that Frazier is a brat.

Another update is that the AD, Martin Jarmond, was going around the gym last night making sure no spectators had signs in support of the girls. He was personally taking them himself. Paulie, the venue, has a no signs policy but fans said they’ve never seen the AD doing this before.
 
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At this point we have a whole lot of unsubstantiated accusations pointed at a whole lot of people who may or may not have actually been the ones at fault. For instance, the can of sardines/bleach thing is based on hearsay and, so far as I can tell, that hearsay is from people who were not the gymnasts. There seem to be assumptions that specific members of the team did these things, but we have no names attached to them. All we have are vehement denials from Marz and Sekai that they had anything to do with such things, and don’t know of anyone who did them. They could very well have happened but we have no idea who did them if they did.

The only specific accusations we have are Sekai having heard AJ use the n-word (after which AJ stopped using it around Sekai), a second-hand statement that other gymnasts heard her use it more often among other hurtful statements, and the fallout of the team meeting. We also have the third-hand statements that gymnasts from UCLA reached out to gymnasts from LSU defending AJ. And, likely most importantly, we have a description of the way in which the coaches handled the incident from the point of view of two gymnasts sharing what they know of it, and actions taken collectively by the team as a whole. I think the things in this paragraph, as stated, with attribution as stated, are the only sure things we have in this case.

I do think there is a possibility a lot of young women are acting with less maturity than perhaps they could BUT I also recognize that most of the team feels hurt at this point. It really does seem like there was a lack of support and inappropriate handling of the situation from those in charge. We probably shouldn’t expect full maturity from college students, many of whom are still teens and navigating a fraught situation for the first time.

What on earth were Waller et. al. doing addressing the matter in a series of one-on-one meetings with gymnasts, including those who had no knowledge of the situation to begin with? Why on earth did the only group look at the problem fall to the gymnasts? Why did it get spread to a larger number of individuals than it originally involved?

I feel like the coaches could have headed this off by calmly talking with AJ about the need to use respectful speech around her teammates the first time they heard an allegation, ramping that up to a discussion with AJ and the gymnast/gymnasts involved in a second hurtful event if it happened again and laying out consequences at that time should it continue to occur, and moving on to the consequences if it continued. If needed they could have put her in touch with the campus counseling service at any point, but doing so shouldn’t mean that she now has no consequences.
Honestly it feels like this is the sort of thing for which they should have a defined process, and they clearly did not. Said process could be used for any and all substantiated grievances, equally and without bias. As such, I do feel that leadership failed to, well, lead, and at this point that is the real problem here.

Edit to add- I have real respect for the way that Jay Clark is handling this, honestly. He reached out to those most likely to be impacted by the decision and respected their voice. He reached out to the professionals at his institution and gained their advice. He stated that he has a diverse team that he appreciates and that that diversity must be respected. He made it clear that racism within the team is not tolerated. And he worked with the sources he directly had, using what he knew from them and only what he could directly substantiate. It’s not his fault that those in charge at UCLA did not communicate with him, and it would not be his fault if anyone gave him an incomplete story. Hopefully the situation at LSU will be totally different from the one at UCLA, and if it is it will be because leadership was more intentional and prepared. Yeah, there’s a possibility that he made a mistake, but at this point if he did I feel like he would own it. Clearly noone in charge at UCLA is owning any responsibility for the situation there beyond showing fear that their actions would harm one gymnast’s mental state. Fear is not a good end reaction from leadership. Proactive care is.
 
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There are a lot of accusations flying around - some seem to be hearsay/gossip without anyone putting their names to them. Obviously something happened.

However there are some issues that stood out to me and they relate to institutional failures:
  1. I am stunned if it is true that UCLA have no anti-racism/equality policies or defined procedures in the event of a breach. For goodness sake it is 2022 and most organisations I have worked for had these 30-40 years ago … but UCLA who brands itself based on diversity seemingly don’t.
  2. I am surprised that it was deemed something for coaches to handle by interviewing gymnasts. Surely you would need to bring in completely neutral people to investigate to engender trust in the process and to ensure that the 1:1 interview process was not used to apply pressure eg through leading questions or to minimize the responsibility and accountability of the coaching team
  3. I am also pretty shocked that in 2022 we haven’t got away from the stereotypes that women, and often minority women, have to act as rehab centres for racists, homophobics, misogynists etc by telling them to offer “grace” and to “educate” people who have acted in an abusive manner towards them.
  4. I also have doubts about Jay’s actions. At first, like many people, I regarded his actions positively. But on reflection his actions raise some red flags for me, Can he really just ring another team and ask about sensitive racism allegations? Surely it puts UCLA in an impossible position as the coaches can’t answer and risks them a lawsuit? Can a coach from another team really just orchestrate approaches to gymnasts to “blab” about teammates? Is this allowed/ethical in NCAA? How were the gymnasts to be approached selected? Was a list of “referees” supplied by AJ? i.e. her friends. Was it ensured that LSU heard from all sides of the conflict?
 
I got the impression that the LSU athletes volunteered the info without Jay putting them up to it. Perhaps that impression is mistaken, but if there are indeed UCLA athletes on AJ’s side, then they may have known she was working to transfer and proactively reached out. It also could be that athletes who were dealing with the original situation, having been asked to “say nothing,” then chose to say nothing at the same time as those supporting AJ reached out. It’s hard to know.
 
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In the press conference I saw Jay said that he had contacted UCLA athletes to check out the story. The Marz made a statement that she believed this to be contrary to NCAA regulations. I think Jay may have backtracked
 

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