Team USA moving forward

[RichardL]

I see lots of little DP gymnasts in my Insta feed, and have often thought this. Clearly the DP works, because the USA is still very dominant at the international level (if not as completely as they would like). But the music for compulsories is so bad that it doesn't facilitate artistry or fluidity. It sounds like orchestras tuning up, with convenient rhythmic blurps that the gymnasts can snap their bodies crisply to. So these little gymnasts look incredibly sharp - beautiful body tension and marking the beat well - but no fluidity and not really any genuine opportunity to work towards it.


This could be the wrong way to look at it. Melnikova just qualified AA in first place despite a problematic beam and indifferent floor. She's in three finals and is clearly still close to her peak. Instead of worrying why 15 year old Caroline Moreau isn't ready to take on 25 year old Melnikova, we should be wondering how good Moreau (or even Blakey) will look when she's 25. In which case pacing and planning for the future is the key rather than presuming that the pipeline is problematic. It has just....shifted. And if you were a new senior, would you want to be peaking right now, with the Olympics years away? Competition experience, gradual artistry upskilling, careful attention to skill selection. Basically, the development program needs to continue through senior elite until gymnasts naturally hit their peak rather than being forced to because they've hit an arbitrary age.

Well yes, definitely! But I feel like this was my point! I made the joke about geriatric talent: the whole possibility of a long career has now been opened up, and the gymnasts should be leveling up (metaphorically) along their own timelines. Caylor at 17 is basically being debuted on the international stage for the first time, no one outside of the Americas has heard of her.

There's no longer the pressure for new juniors to dominate immediately upon turning senior like we used to expect them to. Jordan Wieber competed at the 2009 American Cup two years before she would really have been eligible to do so, and she beat the eventual World AA Champion from that year. And then when Wieber won her World AA title in 2011, every medalist was a first-year senior. That would be unthinkable today.

 

[RichardL]

Well yes, definitely! But I feel like this was my point! I made the joke about geriatric talent: the whole possibility of a long career has now been opened up, and the gymnasts should be leveling up (metaphorically) along their own timelines. Caylor at 17 is basically being debuted on the international stage for the first time, no one outside of the Americas has heard of her.

There's no longer the pressure for new juniors to dominate immediately upon turning senior like we used to expect them to. Jordan Wieber competed at the 2009 American Cup two years before she would really have been eligible to do so, and she beat the eventual World AA Champion from that year. And then when Wieber won her World AA title in 2011, every medalist was a first-year senior. That would be unthinkable today.

And my point about all of this was to push back a little bit at criticisms of the US developmental program, which so far has been turning out juniors who are actually focused on basics rather than showy D scores. People keep talking about Addalye VansGriven as some kind of cautionary tale as a US gymnast with low difficulty while at the same time criticizing the development of a gymnast like Roberson which was focused on difficulty.

Shouldn't we be saying that something is going right with the US program if VansGriven is offered lots of international opportunities even with low D scores? Can't we expect the D scores to rise over time and not be too concerned about the state of US WAG with most of their top performers injured or resting?

 

[Ms Motts]

Ahh - your point was my point! (Although I dispute that nobody has heard of Dulcy, I've been rooting for her from Australia for a couple of years now!).

Fun fact about USAG compulsory routines. I don't know if this is still the case, but at least ~15 years ago when I was more involved, they choreographed the routine first and then "composed" music to match. That's why the music sounds so awful.

This is EXACTLY how it looks and sounds! And I have wondered for years now why the music doesn't sound like real music. I assumed it was composed in-house to avoid licensing issues.

(We licence music for compulsories here in Australia - there's an entire generation now of parents, coaches, and judges for whom Robert Miles' 'Children' is not a club banger, but the trigger of a 'not again' eyelid twitch.)

 

[ruby]

I think the US got lucky for a while with a few exceptional talents who managed to actually sustain and improve their level until they became eligible. In addition to that, mediocre juniors managed to suddenly improve quickly enough to become relevant. There was always someone better and gymnasts and coaches kept pushing. The pool was so deep, losing standout juniors to injury/puberty/burn-out didn't even matter (think Bailie Key, Lexi Priess!).

I think some of it was luck (every program goes through phases), some of it was better development (for whatever reason), and some of it was due to Karolyi ruling with an iron fist. That's not to defend the actions under her reign but I think the program at least had direction and coaches knew what to do. I think now everyone is much happier but that alone is not going to keep the US at the top.

Regarding the development program: I couldn't possibly tell you what is wrong with it (if there is) but I feel there are too many gymnasts on an Elite path who are not going to be relevant. It's either body type (sorry but it needs to be said), talent or a combination of both. And I'm sure there are a number of gymnasts out there who would be much better suited. The dance/artistry issue is not going to be solved at camps or by choreographing better compulsory. There needs to be a dance/ballett teacher who regularly works with the gymnasts from a young age without (!) the Code in mind. Developping posture, fluidity and grace is not something that happens during beam and floor warm-up, it needs to be treated as a separate event.

 

[Puffin]

Nevermind that 50 is basically all it took to make world AA finals (which shows that the problem is not US only)

But that is not really the problem here - is the US really looking to score 50.5 to scrape into AA? Or they looking to get their AA:ers into the top 3 and qualify 2 for each EF in good positions?

This is really where the US has struggled this Championships - when sub division 9 started yesterday it looked as though the US might be out of most EF - luckily they hung on but in the lower order and no US gymnast qualified to anything in the top 3

AA
Caylor 5th
Wong 11th

VT qualifiers
Roberson 8th - hung on in there with 2 gymnasts less than 0.07 behind (If Sabrina had got bonus Roberson would be out)
Wong 22nd

UB
Blakely 7th
Wong 11th
(helped by a few fallers)

BB
Caylor 6th
Blakely 9th
Wong 10th
(lucky that the entire Russian-AIN team melted down, plus on Chinese and others to allow Dulcy to hold on)

FX
Caylor 8th
Wong 11th
Roberson 16th

 

[Sasha]

Instead of worrying why 15 year old Caroline Moreau isn't ready to take on 25 year old Melnikova, we should be wondering how good Moreau (or even Blakey) will look when she's 25.

I think this is an excellent perspective. Who in 2017 would have foreseen Jones' trajectory last quad? Or Kinsella becoming a leader and key player for GB?

Also, yes, it does appear that we're at the point where fans are going to have to get used to USA not winning TF by five points and whatnot. All signs point to the dominance of the last 15 odd years diminishing, if not disappearing entirely. I agree that USAG has systemic issues that should be addressed. But I'm less concerned about the USA not putting up the results they did five or ten years ago. It happens, things change. And we know that change needed to happen at USAG. They're certainly not getting everything right, and there are certainly signs of the pendulum swinging too far in the opposite direction, but hopefully they're not traumatising teenage athletes anymore?

Sorry if I'm not making sense. I'm on meds that are making me woozy.

 

[Denn]

Curiosity: Would we be having this conversation if, say, Shilese Jones had decided to go for 2025 Worlds?

I think "sort of". But she would have made AA instead of Wong and a couple apparatus finals.

 

[cats]

If Jones and Rivera were healthy enough to compete, or if Wong had switched her vault order yesterday and qualified in medal positions in AA and VT, plus retaining the US’ prime hope for a gold in that VT final, everything would be normal. Same if Blakely wasn’t still on her way back from the Achilles.

IMO there is something to the reduced international schedule, especially in the spring. The meets aren’t the same; there’s nothing playing the role of Pacific Rim + Jesolo in 2016. Even when there is a team meet there, it’s not the same experience because the US heavyweights are at NCAA or saving their bodies for Worlds. The experience of regularly training alongside world champions isn’t really there for this generation in the same way it was in the past. I wonder if there is a “I don’t think I can compete with Simone and Jade on floor, they’re just too good, I’m going to focus on college” mindset instead of a “oh, that’s what it takes to get there.”

I also think the US wouldn’t have been so dominant last quad if Russia was around. We got a ton of talent from a lot of countries, but after Tokyo we should’ve seen huge careers out of Listunova and Urazova, and of course Melnikova has kept trucking. It would have been more competitive.

 

[Puffin]

If Jones and Rivera were healthy enough to compete, or if Wong had switched her vault order yesterday and qualified in medal positions in AA and VT, plus retaining the US’ prime hope for a gold in that VT final, everything would be normal. Same if Blakely wasn’t still on her way back from the Achilles.

IMO there is something to the reduced international schedule, especially in the spring. The meets aren’t the same; there’s nothing playing the role of Pacific Rim + Jesolo in 2016. Even when there is a team meet there, it’s not the same experience because the US heavyweights are at NCAA or saving their bodies for Worlds. The experience of regularly training alongside world champions isn’t really there for this generation in the same way it was in the past. I wonder if there is a “I don’t think I can compete with Simone and Jade on floor, they’re just too good, I’m going to focus on college” mindset instead of a “oh, that’s what it takes to get there.”

I also think the US wouldn’t have been so dominant last quad if Russia was around. We got a ton of talent from a lot of countries, but after Tokyo we should’ve seen huge careers out of Listunova and Urazova, and of course Melnikova has kept trucking. It would have been more competitive.

The US has sent a lot of gymnasts to the world cups with mixed results - although sadly not to Paris where the big names went as a warm up for Jakarta

The US did send a team to Jesolo - Pease, Rose, Caylor, Sullivan and Drusch - but again the results were mixed

TF - silver (to Italy)

AA - silver (Pease) and Bronze (Sullivan) . but 2 points behind Esposito

VT - bronze (Sullivan) - behind Schönmaier and Fontaine

UB - Gold (Rose) and silver (Pease)

BB - no medals

FX - no medals

 

[Sasha]

Those results are really only "mixed" in the context of recent US dominance. One gold, three silvers, and two bronze—one third of the total medals—in a single competition is a crazy good result in nearly any other context.

 

[CameliasFingerpaint]

I’m somewhat sympathetic to the US not attending as many overseas meets as other delegations, as it is a major training interruption in a way it isn’t for European athletes.

However, I think it would be wise for USAG to lobby to host an international FIG meet and give the option for US athletes to attend more world cups if they wish.

Track and field has the same issue of the Eurocentrism of meets, but decisions to attend Diamond League events (the World Cup equivalent) has always been up to personal coaches and athletes, not the federation.

 

[Passion]

The American Cup is returning in 2026.

 

[flappergirl]

The American Cup is returning in 2026.

Hope it’s fairly judged

 

[RedBirdie]

American Cup 2026 isn't a world cup event, afaik. It's a mixed team competition, similar to DTB Mixed or Swiss Cup.

 

[KristyJ]

But that is not really the problem here - is the US really looking to score 50.5 to scrape into AA? Or they looking to get their AA:ers into the top 3 and qualify 2 for each EF in good positions?

This is really where the US has struggled this Championships - when sub division 9 started yesterday it looked as though the US might be out of most EF - luckily they hung on but in the lower order and no US gymnast qualified to anything in the top 3...

I will be honest that I would be more worried about this week's results if it wasn't a complete clusterfluff of a mess across worlds, and across teams, and if there weren't wild things in scoring like the DTY downgrade. Basically every delegation had some sort of abject disaster on one event or another. All this talk about Italy, and yes they left their two heaviest hitters home, but they only qualified two athletes to any finals, which I don't think was their expectation either.

 

[Passion]

American Cup 2026 isn't a world cup event, afaik. It's a mixed team competition, similar to DTB Mixed or Swiss Cup.

It’s still an extra opportunity to compete against international athletes. Plus 100% of mixed team competitions have been held solely in Europe until this new American Cup. We need more than just Yul Moldauer with his Swiss Cup residency to have experience with this set up going into ‘28. It’s a good move from USAG.

 

[MaryClare]

If Jones and Rivera were healthy enough to compete, or if Wong had switched her vault order yesterday and qualified in medal positions in AA and VT, plus retaining the US’ prime hope for a gold in that VT final, everything would be normal. Same if Blakely wasn’t still on her way back from the Achilles.

IMO there is something to the reduced international schedule, especially in the spring. The meets aren’t the same; there’s nothing playing the role of Pacific Rim + Jesolo in 2016. Even when there is a team meet there, it’s not the same experience because the US heavyweights are at NCAA or saving their bodies for Worlds. The experience of regularly training alongside world champions isn’t really there for this generation in the same way it was in the past. I wonder if there is a “I don’t think I can compete with Simone and Jade on floor, they’re just too good, I’m going to focus on college” mindset instead of a “oh, that’s what it takes to get there.”

I also think the US wouldn’t have been so dominant last quad if Russia was around. We got a ton of talent from a lot of countries, but after Tokyo we should’ve seen huge careers out of Listunova and Urazova, and of course Melnikova has kept trucking. It would have been more competitive.

Urazova was a ticking time bomb. She was never going to be able to maintain her already relatively modest difficulty level beyond her teenage years.

 

[RichardL]

Urazova was a ticking time bomb. She was never going to be able to maintain her already relatively modest difficulty level beyond her teenage years.

I'm still sad about Listunova missing the Tokyo AA final in favor of Urazova. Her TF performance was so spectacular.

 

[MaryClare]

I'm still sad about Listunova missing the Tokyo AA final in favor of Urazova. Her TF performance was so spectacular.

At the risk of sounding like the grandmothers who sit on the bench outside my building, this shit would never have happened in the Soviet days

 

[cats]

I loved Urazova and decline to accept any criticism.

My point with Jesolo isn’t that the meet doesn’t exist, it’s that Jesolo isn’t the “spring team meet with the very best Americans” opportunity that it used to be.