Team USA moving forward

[MaryClare]

It's funny in this thread that we're still talking about athletes who were seniors as far back as 2017 (Carey, Chiles) and 2018 (Jones) and 2019 (Wong), as well as gymnasts who were eligible for Tokyo (Blakely). What a difference from, say, 2012, where Raisman was the veteran who had been to just two Worlds and everyone else just had Tokyo Worlds under their belt (or nothing, in the case of Ross).

But I don't think things are as dire as they might seem after yesterday. No one had Caylor on their team and she's now in the top AA group with two EFs. What I mean by that is not just that she did great (she did!) but that this competition is pure chaos. The best beamer in the world fell while doing choreography. Gymnasts qualified to finals with falls.

The US National Champion and Olympic veteran is out with injury, and she's legitimately a successful recent junior to senior transition. I think there's reason to believe that Gabrielle Hardie can be a star. And for all the fears about the havoc GAGE could wreak on Crain, she's great so far. But also, other teams are also still relying on geriatric talent as well. Melnikova was in Rio, as was Andrade. Black was in London! Everyone on the Chinese team was eligible for the last Olympics, and Deng Yalan is basically a grandmother.

Who are the new seniors who are grabbing the torch heading into LA internationally? Perotti? I think this is more of a global issue than a US issue in a lot of ways. The US could be seen as just a microcosm of a bigger trend.

It’s not really a global issue. Only a handful of countries ever really consistently produced top juniors. And some of those, ie Romania are just not operating at the level they did previously. The US always had, regardless of who was in charge, even in that weird late 90s period where no one was in charge.

I think that the rise in prestige and popularity of NCAA as well as the relaxation of financial rules means there are even fewer reasons for a gymnast to pursue elite. The archetypal gym parent is just as likely to push their kid to be a gymnastics influencer in ncaa as they are an Olympic candidate.

 

[MaryClare]

I wonder if USAG could do something support younger and newer coaches and gyms that might be more open to change than the old guard. There's a lot of old-school thinking and ego in that group, and the best option knight be to develop a viable alternative to them rather than try to change them. Though this is hardly a short-term solution.

How many of the old guard are actually around though, as in having current national team members?

Isn’t it just Al&Armine, Valeri and Evgeny?

 

[irichluck21]

True 2004 was a mess and USA should have easily defeated Romania.

2006 was a monster fuck up with uncharacteristic falls- but also Marta removed Priess and Kelley from the team finals roster with Liukin as back up on vault, beam, and floor-which she was not physically capable of doing. Memmel screwed up her shoulder on her bars fall. Had Memmel not pushed through beam and floor, the US would have counted two 0s and finished 8th.

2008 there was plenty of evidence that at least one if not more Chinese gymnasts were underage. (No this isn't racist-as Twitter mob have stated) He Kexin was absolutely underage and also possible Deng Linlin and Jiang Yuyuan were also not 16. We know China had cheated in 2000, but had at the time, not yet been caught. There is no doubt in my mind they did it in 2008 so they could win gold at home.

2010 silver was a strong result considering they were the 3rd best team in Rotterdam, but got lucky when Russia imploded. Marta actually went against her typical decisions and let Larson go up, despite having messed up the day before. Larson should have had a back up in case she missed the punch layout out of her 2 1/2. Back then a simple front aerial fulfilled the requirement, why everyone didn't have one in the routines was always a strange decision to me.

 

[flappergirl]

Dan Baker is gone, Betty Okino is the Developmental Lead.

Does anyone know how good she is?

 

[Sasha]

How many of the old guard are actually around though, as in having current national team members?

Isn’t it just Al&Armine, Valeri and Evgeny?

Possibly Zmeskal too, based on her coaching style rather than her age. But GAGE, the WOGAs and TD account for a sizeable proportion of US national team members, don't they?

 

[Denn]

I think that the rise in prestige and popularity of NCAA as well as the relaxation of financial rules means there are even fewer reasons for a gymnast to pursue elite. The archetypal gym parent is just as likely to push their kid to be a gymnastics influencer in ncaa as they are an Olympic candidate.

Even more likely, I feel.

Why would you want to subject your child to elite training and elite scoring (which, at this point, is tantamount to abuse — it treats humans like computers and punishes them severely for things like bending arms or turning past handstand)?

Elite WAG has become a total mess of a sport, being driven by a miserable WTC who seem like they don't really care about gymnasts and gymnastics and how it looks to the world. When 7.7 is considered a high score, and athletes are all accepting it, something is SERIOUSLY wrong with the sport.

 

[MaryClare]

Possibly Zmeskal too, based on her coaching style rather than her age. But GAGE, the WOGAs and TD account for a sizeable proportion of US national team members, don't they?

Pease, Rivera, Anzola, L Crain, Sath, Moreau. It’s not a lot really. Although I noticed that Bullock’s coach is now listed as Tatiana Perskaia which wasn’t previously the case

 

[Caligym]

I believe some of what everyone is talking about is happening under Okino at the Elite Developmental camps. Many younger coaches and athletes that are hopes or aren’t even hopes athletes yet attending.

 

[MaryClare]

Even more likely, I feel.

Why would you want to subject your child to elite training and elite scoring (which, at this point, is tantamount to abuse — it treats humans like computers and punishes them severely for things like bending arms or turning past handstand)?

Elite WAG has become a total mess of a sport, being driven by a miserable WTC who seem like they don't really care about gymnasts and gymnastics and how it looks to the world. When 7.7 is considered a high score, and athletes are all accepting it, something is SERIOUSLY wrong with the sport.

I do think that in the next 10 years, a lot more international gymnasts are going to be pursing ncaa scholarships rather than pushing their difficulty. Especially since it’s very standard in many countries now for the young people to have a high standard of English.

 

[Hatsumomo]

I do think that in the next 10 years, a lot more international gymnasts are going to be pursing ncaa scholarships rather than pushing their difficulty. Especially since it’s very standard in many countries now for the young people to have a high standard of English.

I don't think I would have ever predicted a Romanian pursuing NCAA gymnastics. But one of the top global universities in the world offering you a full ride to compete in gymnastics is an easy sell.

 

[MaryClare]

I don't think I would have ever predicted a Romanian pursuing NCAA gymnastics.

No. Not just because their federation wouldn’t have allowed but also their education and level of English wouldn’t have been sufficient. But Romania nowadays is very similar to Western European countries. The young people speak good English and have similar dreams and lifestyle aspirations.

 

[CameliasFingerpaint]

No. Not just because their federation wouldn’t have allowed but also their education and level of English wouldn’t have been sufficient. But Romania nowadays is very similar to Western European countries. The young people speak good English and have similar dreams and lifestyle aspirations.

Which ironically has led to their resurgence, the opposite of what is happening here.

 

[MaryClare]

Which ironically has led to their resurgence, the opposite of what is happening here.

Hmm. It’s not really a resurgence. Even at European level, they are not challenging for a team medal, they have no AAers and only voinea is a medal threat.

 

[Aeris]

Memmel and Sacramone have complained repeatedly about the push back they're getting from established coaches when they try to put in new, evidence-backed best practices, and it doesn't seem like USAG is willing to give them the teeth to just do it. And they can't make the coaches change bad routine construction or change their approaches in the gym.

They need to use their position and flat out tell the coaches they won't put their gymnasts on teams if they don't listen. They also aren't being tough enough with the gymnasts. Too lax of an environment, and giving out stickers for achieving 5.0 D score? This isn't elementary school.

I don't think Memmel/Sacramone are as code savvy as they could be either.

 

[cats]

I don’t really understand why the NT leadership can’t tell an athlete competing on an international assignment that they can’t compete an unsafe skill. Frankly that’s never made sense to me.

 

[Puffin]

I think that USA needs to look again at their systems for qualifying elite/junior elite/hopes - so many seem to be rushed through to chuck big skills without the basics. This might have been a sound strategy in 2006 but it doesn't seem to be working for them.

Also they need to fix domestic judging as the judges don't seem to take deductions.

Roberson is a prime example of the problem - she's a great talent but never refined her basics - you she could shoot up the ranks for chucking big skills and the judges rewarded her despite the technique and form flaws - at nationals she was getting high 7s for fx E score but at Worlds she's in the 6s without a fall. It's like Skinner all over again.

 

[KathySantoni]

One thing that has bothered me for nearly 20 years now is how USA WAG never took true advantage of the semi-centralized system they've created for themselves. Probably a large part of it is ego, but how do you get all these gymnasts and coaches at the same place for a week every month and not do event workshops/rehabbing? Take a coach that can really coach, say beam, and have them work with gymnasts who need help there? Coaches who understand the CoP and routine construction to workshop routines? Camps in the off-season be dedicated to working on body carriage and flow?

Not sure that many coaches would agree to this. What benefit is it to Dulcy Caylor if her coach is giving beam tips to Leanne and Skye?

 

[MaryClare]

They need to use their position and flat out tell the coaches they won't put their gymnasts on teams if they don't listen. They also aren't being tough enough with the gymnasts. Too lax of an environment, and giving out stickers for achieving 5.0 D score? This isn't elementary school.

I don't think Memmel/Sacramone are as code savvy as they could be either.

It’s difficult for them to do anything like that until the judges judge properly so they can back their decisions

 

[BB12]

I cant help but wonder if the rise of NCAA for elites is slightly contributing to this.

Globally, it feels like gymnasts are reaching their peak at an older age and are no longer needing to be ready the minute they become a senior. So many are gymnasts thriving in their mid-late 20s.

But in the US, a lot of the elite pool are tapping out at 18 to go do NCAA and then those who do continue elite are only doing it part time, lots with coaches who aren't equipped to coach elite properly. It feels like a lot of these athletes then don't improve beyond the level they were pre-NCAA and that level isn't what the peak of their ability is.

I look at someone like Shilese as an example of someone who didn't go into NCAA the minute she was eligible and instead, improved as an elite every year instead. I then look at someone like Kaliya Lincoln (injures aside), who if they were representing another country would still be grinding with elite skills and competing at world cups building that expereince+difficulty to be right at the same peaking age many global competitors will be in LA. But instead, she is doing watered down routines at LSU and not improving the skills her competitors are.

I know the counter is pointing to the NCAA representation on the Paris Olympic team but my response to that would be looking at how much last minutes injuries impacted team selection and whether many of those NCAA gymnasts would have been considered on a full strength team (yes, I know you cant count on full health when picking a team).

There might be nothing in this but it's something I have been thinking about. The US team is still strong in comparison to most teams and will still be strong going forward. But this is just a thought when comparing to their dominance in recent quads.

 

[flappergirl]

When I became a year-long gymnastics fan ( 1086 UU/USSR) and the the US rarely won, I loved gymnastics just as much. I think we will figure a way to win without abusing children. If we don’t, it isn’t horrible, not like when gymnasts are routinely exploited.