Simone’s Yurchenko Double Pike

[Doug1233]

Personally I wouldn’t want to chuck a Yurchenko Double Pike onto a hard mat.

 

[Denn]

@GymBeauty, was that directed at me? If so, I think that the 0.4 difference is fine. I’d leave it alone.

@makam I don’t think she’d need to “chuck” a Yurchenko double pike. She has technique, and with the right conditioning and practice, she could do it again. Her body already learned the mechanics and she already has “muscle” memory for that vault, which also builds on other strengths he developed as a youngster (great Yurchenko block, good double salto rotation, ability to spot a landing on a double salto)

Also,

 

[Doug1233]

with the right conditioning

I think this is my issue. To get into that level of conditioning again wouldn’t be for a half-assed comeback.

 

[GymBeauty]

was that directed at me? If so, I think that the 0.4 difference is fine. I’d leave it alone.

Well that’s disappointing to hear.

What about the other part though? I can’t see how the Produnova should be worth .8 less than the 1/4-on, 3/4-off version that gets to land backwards rather than forward. Or the roundoff 1/2-on being worth .6 less when it’s so hard to generate the saltos with that entry and again needing to land forward.

 

[makam]

They shouldn’t artificially lower the value but instead hammer the gymnasts who do it unsafely. Like create a 2 point deduction for “gymnast shows insufficient mastery of skill and is dangerously close to injury” or something.

(Though it seems guys are much more likely to vault outside their abilities so maybe they need that deduction too)

 

[Denn]

I can’t see how the Produnova should be worth .8 less than the 1/4-on, 3/4-off version that gets to land backwards rather than forward. Or the roundoff 1/2-on being worth .6 less when it’s so hard to generate the saltos with that entry and again needing to land forward.

I actually don’t follow what you are saying here, so I can’t respond.

I will say this much: the 0.2 feels like enough. It acknowledges that preceding the vault with a roundoff + half on makes the vault a little harder, but is vault really about what happens before the board? And let’s face it, do we think that most gymnasts who do Chengs could also do good Rudis? (or in Biles’ cases, front double full). The roundoff actually makes the vault more accomplishable for some gymnasts, no?

 

[GymBeauty]

I actually don’t follow what you are saying here, so I can’t respond.

I’m saying it feels wrong how the Ri Se Gwang (especially when it’s done with the 1/4-on + 3/4-off technique, instead of the more difficult 1/2-on + Full-turn-off technique of an actual Tsukahara) is worth .8 more than the Produnova. I also question the Dragulescu being worth .4 more than the Produnova. That extra 1/2 turn on the Dragulescu removes the forward landing, and forward landings tend to be harder than backwards landings.

I will say this much: he 0.2 feels like enough. Is vault really about what happens before the board? And let’s face it, do we think that most gymnasts who do Chengs could also do good Rudis?

That’s a good argument, although I’d say it varies between MAG and WAG, since WAG find handspring vaults more difficult; but also when it comes to vaults with an extra salto, the mechanics seem to make a Roundoff + 1/2-on extra difficult. It feels strange to me in MAG that a vault valued at 5.4 might be more difficult (or at least as difficult) as the vaults valued at 6.0

 

[Denn]

Well, Tsukahara is not really a 1/2 on. It’s 1/4 on, 1/4 off to back salto. But yes, I see why you’d say a Ri with Kas technique might be easier than one with Tsuk technique. And yes, I think I agree that the code should not really equate Kas and Tsuk vaults, but the problem is that some gymnasts “think” Tsuk and pop off the table to twist and untwist, which is why some vaults look wonky coming off the table.

Donnell W. is definitely an example. The layout timer is not so bad, but his Ri vault always looks wonky…



That said, I am fine with the Dragulescu being 0.4 more than than the Roche (not Produnova). Maybe the blind landing is harder, but front landings also tend to avoid deductions for pike-down, lack of extension before landing, and low chest on landing. And, honestly, every gymnast trains front landings from an early age when they do handsprings and Yamashitas in developmental stages, so it’s not THAT foreign to them.

Yeah, maybe roundoff + half on + double front is harder. But it’s not more valuable insofar as the MTC doesn’t want to promote that sort of thing. It’s just not what vaulting is about, and the D-scores of some elements are lower in order to avoid promoting them. I think that’s okay.

 

[GymBeauty]

Well, Tsukahara is not really a 1/2 on. It’s 1/4 on, 1/4 off to back salto.

Whoah, I highly disagree. Many people originally did the vault as 1/2-on, including Nellie Kim for her Olympic victory. The guy who invented it was vaulting onto a sideways horse, so it makes sense he technically just did 1/4-on, but ideally I think it should be a 1/2.

But yes as you said, the main point is a Tsuk vault has an extra 1/2 rotation in total compared to the Kas technique (aside from doing a vault with only that entry and no extra twisting), and should be considered more difficult, in these cases where they both end up rotating backwards.

I agree it’s annoying how messy people can be with these takeoffs. I think part of the reason is because there’s no differential in start value. I’d like to see the Kas be worth .2 less in MAG for these twisty vaults. In WAG the current start values for the Kas technique are fine, so I’d like to see a .2 increase there for using an actual Tsuk technique.

Has anyone ever done a Kas entry Double Tuck/Pike? I don’t think I’ve ever seen it. That’s where the Kas is more difficult than the Tsuk, turning it into a forward vault rather than a backward one.

 

[Denn]

Sidespring double front has been done, yes.

The horse was trashed for many reasons. Tsuk vaults are easier with the 1/4 on. You can get more block.

 

[rlayt]

I think she’s serious.

 

[MRR]

She competed 13 in her career, hitting 11.

I was lucky enough to see her Y2P at 2023 Classic right in front of me, and two rows directly behind her parents.

 

[lovegymnasts]

I think she’s serious.

Am I the only one who is thinking, if she is posting this rest in peace ydp that she is continuing to LA?

 

[makam]

Am I the only one who is thinking, if she is posting this rest in peace ydp that she is continuing to LA?

Yeah, since she wasn't going to be doing it on the tour...

 

[navyblue]

Am I the only one who is thinking, if she is posting this rest in peace ydp that she is continuing to LA?

Hate to read between the lines, but since there aint much else to talk about, why not?! If i were psychoanalyzing this post I'd say that symbolically / cheekily "retiring" a single high-risk gymnastics skill is very very different than retiring from gymnastics and somewhat implies the opposite.

 

[Matilda23]

The next cycle will be interesting. Can Simone still win the WC or OG AA without the YDP.

 

[ArnoldRimmer]

Haha. I think it's a clever publicity shot, probably planned well in advance. Smart and funny idea but tells us nothing more than that. I don't think it even tells us whether a YDP would feature in any comeback. Sorry for the buzzkill!

 

[Sasha]

My read was that she's relieved to not have to compete it anymore - she said in the Netflix doc that it scares her every time. That said, if she comes back for LA, and she needs that vault to be competitive, I have no doubt that she'll bring it back (from the dead, apparently).

 

[RAFIKI]

Haha, now I'm envisioning a resurrection photoshoot for 2027

 

[JaJa]

While I am not willing to risk my house this time . . . .my bet is on Simone retiring from gymnastics and not going to LA in 2028