Event (FIG) Scoring Worlds Routines

[Aeris]

They both separate their legs in the salto — Melnikova's is much earlier, and Schoenmaier only does it at the end. But I feel like you take 0.1 no matter what for that.

Karina shouldn't be deducted for leg separation on that vault. Her legs are totally together until immediately before landing, where they separate a tiny amount that isn't visible in real time.

Melnikova has both crossed legs and leg separation, bent knee, more piking, lower chest landing. It won't be a bigger deduction on the pike, but that landing position is deductible.

Karina has the .3 step instead of Melnikova's .1, but from entry through landing her form is better by .4, that's .2 advantage to her. Melnikova also could be deducted for two .1 steps on landing, she's leaning back slightly after the first hop and doesn't hold the landing, her step into the salute could be a viewed as a needed step for balance.

 

[Doug1233]

Screen caps can be a great tool for teaching at times, but it's not really fair to pull them out to justify one score against another when the judges aren't using them.

I used the screenshots because it demonstrates what we should all be seeing in real-time.

Maybe I am being outvoted here. The overall quality of Schoenmaier's vault is vastly superior, IMO. The judges shouldn't need screenshots to see it.

First Flight Phase
Melnikova - 0.1 - leg separation
Schoenmaier - 0.0
Support Phase
Melnikova - 0.2 (turn began too early, bent arms)
Schoenmaier - 0.1 (turn began too early)
Second Flight Phase
Melnikova - 0.4 (leg crossed, leg separation, body alignment in stretch, failure to maintain stretch)
Schoenmaier - 0.3 (legs crossed, body alignment in stretch, height, distance)
Landing
Melnikova - 0.2 (hop x 2)
Schoenmaier - 0.1 (hop)

Total
Melnikova - 9.1
Schoenmaier - 9.5

It was a superior vault, all around, for me. My issue isn't with Melnikova's score (although the leg separation coming into landing is borderline 0.3) it is how low Shoenmaier's is.

 

[Doug1233]

Karina shouldn't be deducted for leg separation on that vault. Her legs are totally together until immediately before landing, where they separate a tiny amount that isn't visible in real time.

Melnikova has both crossed legs and leg separation, bent knee, more piking, lower chest landing. It won't be a bigger deduction on the pike, but that landing position is deductible.

Karina has the .3 step instead of Melnikova's .1, but from entry through landing her form is better by .4, that's .2 advantage to her. Melnikova also could be deducted for two .1 steps on landing, she's leaning back slightly after the first hop and doesn't hold the landing, her step into the salute could be a viewed as a needed step for balance.

Totally agree. Except that I don't even think Shoenmaier should get 0.3 for the landing.

 

[KristyJ]

I have Schoenmaier around a 9.2, Melnikova at 9.0, and Jocelyn's is about right at 8.6. I would take 0.3 for Schoenmaier's landing, but the fact that she has more height than Melnikova keeps her ahead.

If I recall correctly, that's about what I had them at on the day of, as well.

 

[Aeris]

It should be 0.2 landing, but no such thing exists since the code sucks. Interesting we're all thinking a bit different about the amplitude. I'd say they are about even (.1 off for each of them).

 

[Doug1233]

I have Schoenmaier around a 9.2, Melnikova at 9.0, and Jocelyn's is about right at 8.6. I would take 0.3 for Schoenmaier's landing, but the fact that she has more height than Melnikova keeps her ahead.

What are your 0.5 other tenths for Schoenmaier?

 

[Doug1233]

Either way, given how bunched the E Scores are on vault, I think we can all agree that Melnikova's should not have been ranked higher in execution.

 

[KristyJ]

What are your 0.5 other tenths for Schoenmaier?

Angle at repulsion (pre-rotate) .1, Hip angle/slight pike .1, leg form near landing .1, soft feet in post flight .1, height .1, I did not take distance for her

 

[ruby]

Schönmeier's vault is better, but she isn't without mistake in any phase while Melnikova's slightly bigger issues don't necessary warrant the bigger deductions. That's why you end up with essentially the same score. If you don't agree with it, you need to not take a deduction for some of Schönmeier's tiny issues or take the .3 for some of Melnikova's that look like more than .1. All to create the difference the Code doesn't really offer.

 

[Doug1233]

Yes it seems like the problems stem from the 1-3-5 model.

Melnikova's mistakes (like the leg sep) are borderline 1-3, so most judges go with 1. Karina's are visible, so they also get 1 - even though Melnikova's are visibly worse. And they end up with the same score. It is a shame.

We need the 0.05 and 2 options back. I think that would fix a lot of the bunching we see.

If you don't agree with it, you need to not take a deduction for some of Schönmeier's tiny issues

I would do this.

 

[eanda]

I used the screenshots because it demonstrates what we should all be seeing in real-time.

Maybe I am being outvoted here. The overall quality of Schoenmaier's vault is vastly superior, IMO. The judges shouldn't need screenshots to see it.

....,

It was a superior vault, all around, for me. My issue isn't with Melnikova's score (although the leg separation coming into landing is borderline 0.3) it is how low Shoenmaier's is.

I get what you're doing with the screenshots, I'm just not a fan of the practice for judging purposes. It would be great if we did see all of this in real time, but different positions and speed of the event, sometimes it's not all seen.

I actually agree that Schoenmaier had the better vault here, but with the deductions available, also see how the results landed where they did. I know when I was judging (much lower level) I was sometimes surprised to have a routine that overall felt "worse" than another come up with a better score.

As far as what can help this, I completely agree on bringing back the .05 and .2 deductions as a great starting point.

It would be interesting to know what the range was of the high and low scores that weren't used on these vaults.

 

[KristyJ]

I feel like in lieu of a great angle from which to view the vaults this competition (seriously what were some of those camera angles?), we're making do with what we can. I would hope the judges could see the appropriate errors decently in real time.

Strong agree on bringing back the full range of half and full tenth deductions.

 

[Aeris]

The deduction increments don't matter much in this instance. Melnikova simply should have received more deductions as per the rules; Schoenmaier's score was suppressed.

It's pretty clear the judges are aware of approximately what E score the people they consider the best will score, and for anyone they consider worse they're going to fabricate deductions if needed to keep the score lower, because they don't want to be out of range with the expected score and are scared they might have missed spotting deductions in the "lower level" routine (and also because that's the result they want anyway).

In that same vein it can also be said, unfavored gymnasts will almost never be given benefit of the doubt on a call, and favored gymnasts will almost always be given benefit of the doubt. Like comparing the landings of these two vaults: Shoenmaier had a borderline .1/.3 hop, judges took .3, while Melniknova had .3 possible in landing deductions with her chest position and two steps, and the judges certainly not did take .3, the majority likely took only .1

 

[KristyJ]

You keep saying "as per the rules" but don't give a concrete score for each of the routines, with a breakdown of why

I don't disagree that there may have been some reputation judging in play, but it's something where it's hard to say exactly how or when it may've happened if there are a lot of borderline calls.

 

[Aeris]

I listed the deductions at the top of this page...Melnikova had .4 more errors in form (including the pre-flight leg separation already discussed), while the only error Schoenmaier had in comparison was .3 step instead of .1 step. All 3 of us have her ahead by at least .2

This is why judge's deductions need to be published. Aside from helping the athletes, the info needs to be out there so people can openly rebel, Megan Duhamel style, by publicly posting routine comparisons and saying "why was X deducted and Y wasn't, when they are exactly the same."

 

[KristyJ]

I didn't mean a list of some deductions, I meant a breakdown of the overall score. Sometimes if they took the deductions it still doesn't add up to as much as one might expect. Honestly, on some of them like the wolf turn, the deductions might've been less than expected, because though she probably didn't intend it to go that way, she lands at 1 1/2 revolutions and so just gets that skill.

I do agree that some form of judging overview afterwards would be nice, though I am not fully convinced of a complete breakdown of every single deduction from every single judge. While I think the extreme anonymity we have right now is too much, a listing of every action taken by a judge could open them up to some awkward public or private interactions. It would be interesting to see an average, like we see GOE in figure skating, as that could be done at larger competitions without introducing so much awkwardness, but it would also require that every single routine be transcribed from shorthand into a database and that sounds complicated.