Konnor McClain to WOGA

[dco1987]

I’m not trying to discount Atler/Ohashi/Larsons experiences, but Rebecca Bross came out and defended him, as did most of WAG while he was coordinator. A lot of them did not want him to leave. The culture he was exposed to as a gymnast himself undoubtedly influenced his coaching style. Konnor has a choice, as do her parents. Everyone knows what happened- it’s not a state secret. But it really bothers my seeing his name mixed in with Na***r on social media.

 

[irichluck21]

Wait.
What was Mattie Larson’s experience. She wasn’t his gymnast and he was not NTC or Junior Developmental at the time IIRC. Was it something that happened at the 2010 Worlds.

Also, apparently coaches were not the only ones that were abusing/harrassing.
Apparently multiple 2010 team members gave Larson hell for her FX including Sacramone, Raisman, and Bross.

 

[irichluck21]

Possibly?
I think so, but also Nastia was raised in that environment anyway and was also used to that “winners culture”. She was extremely critical of her own work and performance. I do remember hearing that they were gymnast and coach in the gym but once they left it was back to father and daughter at home and they left the gymn behind at the gym.

 

[dco1987]

Loads of people on social media are saying he was awful to Mattie, and referencing her testimony at the LN sentencing. Mattie Larson singled out Liukin by name, saying he made her feel “completely invisible” when she was competing.

“It troubles me that he is now in that position, and I hope for the sake of current and future national team members, that he has changed,” she said.

Then the obvious Ohashi stuff. Atler, etc.

He stepped down from NTC when his name was getting dragged into everything going on around that time. A lot of the WAG squad around that time did not want him to step down. Bross defended him. Anything nastia said can’t be taken seriously due to bias but of all people, Bross could have buried him.

Anyway, sorry for the ranting. I’m just finding it really annoying seeing some people on social media equating him with some of the most horrific cases of abuse- he was never actually formally accused of anything and has never had a chance to defend himself. Konnor has chosen to go with him, and that’s her choice. As it is with Simone and Laurent- he’s not exactly free from criticism, but since it’s Simone, all that got left alone. The double standards on gymterland annoys me. Rant over

 

[irichluck21]

I get feeling harmed by someone, but at the same time feeling “completely invisible” by another coach is harmful?

I can’t recall who the World team coaches were. I thought it was Mihai Brestyan as head coach (Raisman and Sacramone) and Jiani Wu as assistant coach/female on floor (Caquatto)

 

[dco1987]

I though Head coach was Geddert and Assistant was Jiani Wu.

The feeling invisible thing… I mean the golden child had returned, his daughter. Plus it was Karoli times- survival of the fittest. I feel uncomfortable questioning any survivors lived experiences so will refrain from doing so. It’s just now he’s coaching Konnor, people are dragging stuff up again and are really going too far in my opinion. Ohashi went for him, but Bross defended him. I don’t doubt he was a tough coach, probably really harsh, but he was no NA***r. And he didn’t cause the toxicity in USAG. And anyone is entitled to pick their own coach.

 

[irichluck21]

Geddert didn’t have an athlete on the team in 2010.

Sloan- Sharp
Raisman and Sacramone- Brestyan
Davis- MLT
Larson- Akoypan
Bross- Liukin
Caquatto- Wu Jiani

 

[dco1987]

Sorry I’m confusing 2011- but you get my point.

 

[YurchenkoLoop]

I don’t actually know what you’re alluding to re: Laurent when you say he’s not exactly free from criticism.

Perhaps he’s well suited to a coordinating role, but Valeri completely disregarded his most recent elite’s concerns about her physical well-being on numerous occasions. Every coach should be highly attuned to their athlete’s pain.

 

[dco1987]

It was assumed a few years ago (2018) that when Grace McLauglin was describing her experiences of abuse at Woga, that she was referring to Laurent. I like Laurent for the record and think he has been wonderful with Simone and with Madison (who has never said a bad word).

Grace was switched to Valeri’s team to escape the bullying she said was ongoing, but had to work with her “old coach” at Pan Am games in 2011- the Woga coach there was Laurent. She never named him directly, but it was discussed in some forums that it was obvious to whom she was referring. She said she’s followed gymnastics and that he may have changed ways… etc.

I’m just saying that there is a hypocrisy that exists that irritates me. Valeri undoubtedly really impacted negatively on the gymnasts who have spoken out about him, but others have defended him- even those who’s careers did not meet expectations. Grace specifically said Valeri was harsh and “Russian” in his training methods but that

The Landi thing kind of got swept under the carpet at the time if I remember right, no one spoke about it. Presumably because he’s the greatest gymnasts coach etc. But when it comes to Valeri- he’s vilified, despite never being formally accused of anything.

Konnor and her parents have made the decision, having known Valeri for a while. It’s not like the stuff that happened was a secret. Other coaches have been given a second chance/are seen to have learned from their mistakes. So I don’t know why Valeri is so different. He is most definitely not the worst that ever was.

 

[ArnoldRimmer]

It’s difficult, because there are potentially some coaches whose behaviour is suspect, potentially even abusive with some gymnasts but not all. Abuse does work like that sometimes. There are also some, perhaps even the majority who themselves went through abusive systems both in the US and elswhere and may geniunely have acted out of ignorance: it’s not necessarily impossible that such people can learn to do better. I would not bet anything of value that Valeri himself was always permitted water when training in the USSR, for example. Or Wu Jiani.

Fwiw, I wouldn’t want Valeri coaching my child. I wouldn’t be sending them to Laurent either without more information on who Grace McLaughlin was talking about. Obviously this is all at a distance and I can’t say what due diligence may have been done by parents who know them, but the reason I raise this is because we’re discussing the issue of whether different standards are being applied.

 

[dco1987]

That’s kind of what I mean though- due diligence and the presumption that an athlete and their parents are making informed decisions more competently than anyone online is able to. Konnor’s parents are making a huge move… I know it’s “her decision” but really we all know the parents have final say unless the young person (under 18) is emancipated or something drastic.

Presumably they all know Valeri from years ago, they’ve weighed the options, and have said let’s go with him. They have a future Olympic prospect, I mean there’s so many other coaches that have proven track records that could have been chosen, but they chose him. And then people (not here specifically- I really do mean generally on social media) are saying it’s awful, Valeri is part of the old abuse system etc etc even though he wasn’t formally accused of anything, never brought before safe sport, and when he stepped down as NTC, loads of the gymnasts at the time were very vocal about wanting him to stay.

My raising Laurent was purely to highlight that because he is coaching Simone, I think people presumed that she (one of the most vocal critiques of USAG and against abuse)must have vetted him, thought he was safe and it was okay. The things said were on par with what was said about Valeri, but “he must have learned from his mistakes if Simone trusts him”.

If what Grace said at the time had been about say for example Christian, or another high level but more “bubble” coach, I believe strongly people (gymterland) would not have let it all slide away so quietly. Answers would have been demanded and a lot more damage could have been done to his career. Laurent is pretty much unscathed and most people don’t even remember anything was said, especially among new or four year fans. And it’s often them who are clued in with future Olympic team member Katelyn Ohashi (sarcasm obviously) that start spewing bile on social media and putting Valeri in the same sentence as Na***r. I find that horrific, considering he’s never actually been brought up formally on anything, same as Laurent.

At the end of the day, these people chose a coach, knowing what we all know and probably more. But still people go off about it (again, not here specifically) and it’s hypocritical sometimes. Sorry the ranting, I just feel super strongly about the whole trial by social media. Konnor chose a coach, and if it goes badly that’s on them, but people will probably forgive a lot if she’s suddenly 2021 World AA champion.

 

[RedBirdie]

I read Grace’s account of training with Valeri and think “stockholm syndrome.” What she wrote isn’t exactly a glowing endorsement of his training methods.

Personally, I look at Valeri’s career as an elite coach, and the stories I’ve heard from other coaches and gymnasts, and see someone who absolutely does not have the best interests of the children he trains at heart. His obsession about weight and terribly unhealthy methods he used on his gymnasts are well known. He completely mismanaged Bross, culminating in the horrific knee injury at 2011 nationals. Other coaches were glad he took the development position because it meant he would no longer be openly poaching their gymnasts. He had a “chew 'em up and spit 'em out” attitude, and talked shit about other gymnasts and even his own former gymnasts.

Maybe he’s changed. Maybe he took a hard look at himself and now understands he really fucked up. But until he shows that, I’m not going to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Not that any US elite coach is exactly covering themselves in glory. Even the seemingly “sane” coaches engage in all sorts of unhealthy tactics. It’s very frustrating–even at the lowest levels there’s an incredible amount of dysfunction in this sport.

 

[dco1987]

I don’t disagree with you at all. In fact Stockholm syndrome in that case is the exact phrase I thought of. But she said he was the lesser of the evils. Which is why I brought up the hypocrisy. It’s inherently assumed that Laurent must have learned by virtue of the fact that it was never mentioned again, and probably only because he’s Simone’s coach.

Rebecca Bross actually defended Valeri and that really surprised me. It made me question my own biases. I’ll never forget the scream of her knee and at the time I blamed Valeri. She doesn’t/at least didn’t blame him and I have to respect that the athlete knows better than me. Or at least trust what she said- plus she said it at a time where everything was coming out about some of the most abhorrent abusers. Coaching styles were brutal and there is a significant move to change the culture of coaching practices. I’m not in anyway saying Valeri shouldn’t have received/receive valid criticism, but at the same time, no one mentions Grace once when everyone is flocking to WCC.

Really my whole point is that Konnor has chosen a new coach. And it’s someone who doesn’t have a clean record. At this point it’s nearly impossible to find someone who does have a clean record. But I have to trust that with everything that’s happened in the last few years, that Konnor and her parents chose Valeri for a reason. I mean it does seem objectively so… random or something. But I’m presuming he has learned and grown. Otherwise, it doesn’t make sense why the parents of a legitimate Olympic prospect chose him over every other coach.

 

[Doug1233]

I do hope that coaches have really “grown up” over the last 10 years. We have seen that champions do not have to be stick thin 15yo ballerinas to win. That wasn’t the case in the 90s and even the 00s.

I am sure that Valeri is smart enough to know that, and put those coaching techniques (like sweating in a sauna and doing cardio in 3 sweatshirts) in the past.

However, there are some circumstances when weight is a safety issue. And we shouldn’t bulldoze over that conversation completely. I’m sure Simone herself knows that a triple double is a lot harder when she’s 5lbs heavier. It’s just a fact. But there’s of course a healthy and an unhealthy way to monitor weight and address fat gain.

 

[lspatterson]

Konnor McClain is not going to be will not compete in the national championships or the Olympic Trials this month.

https://www.insidegymnastics.com/news-features/konnormcclainmovestowoga/

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/mo...nast-focuses-on-2024-olympic-cycle/ar-AAKD8mE

 

[Bananna]

I hope that Konnor gets whatever she wants out of moving gyms.

Re Valeri, I’ve read/heard enough of about his coaching methods to be concerned, but I sincerely hope that he has changed. McKenzie Wofford has also spoken out against Valeri and described a similiar pattern of unhealthy coaching. Bross’ positive experience doesn’t negate the negative experience of Ohashi, Atler or Wofford and vice versa. He’s obviously not on the same level as Nassar or even a coach like Geddert and anyone comparing the two is engaging in ridiculous hyperbole. But at the same time, he played a role in perpetuating an abusive culture, which is where the Mattie Larson story comes in. Valeri did an interview with a Russian media outlet a couple of years ago and said something along the lines of that he had to resign because of a “made up reason.” That doesn’t strike me as someone who has seriously reflected on their role in a toxic gymnastics culture. Of course I don’t doubt that Valeri himself was coached in an abusive environment that influenced his own coaching style (iirc his former coach, who now coaches in the US has had some abuse allegations too).

I do agree about how the Laurent abuse has largely been forgotten and it is highly hypocritical. Grace McLaughlin also said some concerning things about her time at Florida that seem to have been forgotten too.

 

[dco1987]

I absolutely agree that one person defending him doesn’t negate that others have said really problematic things about him as a coach, and as I said- I’d never speak about any survivors experience or cast doubt on what they said. It’s just the hypocrisy that bothers me at the moment. I think a lot of the old school coaches had/have a lot of reflection to do. Things are changing- not as quick as some would like but I sincerely believe that Konnors parents would only make a decision they believe is in their child’s best interest, both in terms of personal development and gymnastics career. I don’t particularly want to defend Valeri and it feels weird playing devils advocate tbh. Just if the whole assumption that Laurent (who worked in Valeri’s gym) is now better at looking after athletes, I feel Valeri should be given the same benefit of doubt. Especially when there was such outcry when he stepped down as NTC by the gymnasts. Even Morgan said recently she’d feel comfortable doing the whole social justice thing around Valeri, but not Marta. My own gut tells me he started to evolve over time, but it was a little too late and then everything kicked off. I hope he’s since had time to reflect on everything Katelyn, Mattie, etc have said and will use that to improve his coaching style going forward. Maybe Anna’s with him now to tone him down

 

[MaryClare]

What makes Konnor’s parents any different from any other parent who has put their child with a coach who has a reputation for emotionally abusive or unsafe environments?

 

[dco1987]

It’s Konnor’s decision to make, with the support of her parents. It’s their support that matters. Which she obviously has. They picked him out of every other elite coach in the country. She’s a serious Olympic contender and I’d imagine it goes without saying that a parent will always want to do what’s best for their child. A lot of the younger WAGs-
Pre Rio team, have a lot of time for Valeri and didn’t want him to leave. He may have began to change his coaching techniques.

There are plenty of other coaches currently active that haven’t got a completely clean record in terms of positive athlete support and training and don’t get this kind of attention. Valeri has been described negatively and positively. Same can be said for Mary Lee, Kim, Al, Laurent, etc. He was not brought before Safe Sport, unlike others- Maggie etc.

If Konnor wants him to train her, that’s her business.