Where are the 6.9+ bar routines

[GymBeauty]

Yes, Andrade and Jones do probably have the strength to do one, but they also already have absolutely gorgeous swing and great basics on the other skills as well.

Those “great basics” are still getting deductions though, which could be reduced (and the difficulty score improved too), by putting in a Weiler 1/2 instead of 3 other moves. That’s just the reality of the scoring system, there’s no bonus for looking pretty with an inefficient routine construction (or doing huge releases, or held handstands), only deductions, deductions, deductions. Since that’s what we have to work with, athletes should be aware of how to maximize their scoring potential with the code.

 

[KristyJ]

The bonus of held handstands, ala Jones, is that you get the skill without deductions, which Shilese at least is very capable of. Also Weiler doesn’t automatically = 100% handstand rate, it’s possible to over or undershoot a handstand with that skill as well.

 

[GymBeauty]

??..there’s no lesser deduction for a held handstand. Being in handstand for a tenth of a second or 2 seconds makes no difference to the rules, so long as it’s within the allowable angle, no grip adjustment, etc. If you do a perfectly vertical held handstand, like Gabby Douglas’ beautiful display during the qualifying round of the Olympics on her 2nd cast, but then slightly move your hand afterwards, then you just get less points than doing a cast handstand that barely hits 30 degrees and immediately swings down. Wonderful rules we have!

Anyway, of course it’s not 100% chance to hit the Weiler. But the point is, you’ll get less deduction on this one move in comparison to 3 other moves in total, and you even get a higher difficulty score from the Weiler 1/2 on top of that, when compared to doing an unconnected Jaeger like in Andrade’s routine. Just basic math to see which is better competitively.

Funnily enough, petite Chinese gymnast Zhang Xinyi who seemingly doesn’t have great upper body strength, is doing Weilers in her bar routine. I think this is the first time in WAG I’ve seen Weilers and one-arm pirouettes at the same time:

 

[MaryClare]

Zhang has exactly the kind of body type that find weilers easy- light and compact. Taller gymnasts, often the type who are good at bars are not well suited to the skill. It’s physics. I’m not sure why you’re so keen to make this skill happen?

 

[KristyJ]

She also loses at least a couple of tenths on that skill. It’s hard to see handstand angles from this view, but she has body shape issues in the handstand and some elbow bend coming out of it.
I don’t understand how a hand adjustment out of a normal cast handstand is different than one out of a Weiler?
I also took a look at Weilers on YouTube (simply searched “Weiler kip”), since this discussion continues, and almost none of the examples on the first page of results would be deduction free.
Have you tried Weilers, or any of the work ups or drills leading into Weilers in the past? They’re more difficult than they look.
I just… I don’t understand the push to have all gymnasts do identical routines when different skills fit different bodies, and the skills suggested won’t actually avoid all deductions.

 

[GymBeauty]

Again, a Weiler 1/2 is generally going to get less deduction as compared to having 3 other skills instead (the inefficiency on display in many routines). Cast 1/2’s alone are frequently getting .3 deduction. That move cost Andrade big time at the Olympics, and has constantly been a problem for tons of people. Then you add in her Giant 1/2 being minimum of .1 deduction for alignment, and the Jaeger might be caught with bent arms or have some other form issue or need a grip adjustment after the catch; look at how all this adds up. It’s a lower D-score too! Makes no sense to keep that routine construction, competitively.

I don’t think all gymnasts should do identical routines (although if that’s what’s best in a given code, then competitively it must be followed), but I do think all gymnasts should try to maximize their score. Since 2006, practically nobody has done a Bar routine that perfectly games the code to their potential. The majority of coaches seem unimaginative or unaware with regards to teaching routines that could score better and help their gymnasts. Most don’t even seem to know all the skills in the code, or variations that could exist…

 

[KristyJ]

That immensely depends on the execution of the skill, though. If you can do a totally clean Weiler kip and have a similar other skill that is not as well executed, and you’re not losing connective value in other skills you might link, then it may very well be a great choice.
Did you go to YouTube and watch the examples there? Some of them have almost a point in deductions, and a .1 to .3 miss of a handstand plus a .1 in elbows are frequent issues. The elbows are generally because it is a more difficult skill than a cast handstand/cast handstand 1/2.
Further, if a gymnast has a shaky cast handstand 1/2, there’s no guarantee they won’t have the same problem with the Weiler. You have to learn to stay on top of the bar for the turn on both skills.
You also didn’t answer my question as to whether you’ve tried any of the lead up drills for a Weiler, or a Weiler itself.
I am going step out of this thread because it’s clearly going nowhere, because repeating the same things ad-nauseum with nothing new added gets us nowhere.

 

[GymBeauty]

Yes I’ve done the movement on my own. I think you are incorrect about how difficult the skill is for the typical gymnast (if compulsories were suddenly a thing again and starting with a Weiler 1/2 on the low bar was required, I bet we’d see people getting consistent with it quickly), but beyond that you continue to ignore the point being made about routine construction.

Frankly, a large number of people are going to have more difficulty with a Cast 1/2 than a Weiler 1/2. We’ve seen that with Simone Biles own routines in 2013-2016 when she was doing both. The Weiler 1/2 was reliably within .1 angle, whereas the Cast 1/2 frequently ventured into .3 range. Cast 1/2 gives you less momentum going into the turn and requires multiple hand movements on the bar, whereas with the Weiler 1/2 you only have to move one hand to complete the turn.

This same thing holds true when looking at the hundreds of routines that use Cast 1/2 + flight to high bar. People are often missing the connection, needing to re-cast after the turn in order to do the flight move. Now look at routines doing Weiler 1/2 + Maloney and how many times that connection gets broken. It happens less frequently.

 

[Caledi]

I don’t think it’s an apples-to-apples comparison to compare a cast 1/2 and a weiler 1/2. The gymnasts that I can think of that did the weiler 1/2 for the most part did it in the beginning of their routine whereas I don’t think anyone starts with a cast 1/2, so fatigue comes into play a lot more. I do agree in general that it’s easier to do a half pirouette from reverse to regular grip than from regular to regular (try it in your living room and you’ll see what I mean), but that’s notwithstanding any deductions that can and do happen on the weiler kip (which typically has more deductions than a cast itself). So even if the angle is better on a typical weiler 1/2 that doesn’t mean the total deductions are lower.

I suppose we’d have to do some analysis that I’m too lazy for but I also don’t think that a cast 1/2 typically gets more deductions than a weiler 1/2. Maybe you have that impression because the couple of gymnasts that do the weiler 1/2 are more consistent, but I don’t think cast 1/2 + toe shoot connections are missed that often.

I think a factor that you might be missing, though, is that we’re in the beginning of the quad. At this point, coaches and gymnasts want routines they can build on as the Olympics get closer, and don’t want to spend a bunch of time learning a skill that goes nowhere. A toe circle hecht half (in addition to likely being hard to do deduction free, and there probably being few coaches that still know how to teach them) can’t be connected into or out of, and can’t be built on to learn a new skill. A weiler kip is a bit better in that you can connect out of it but again it takes you a lot fewer places than a giant blind to jaeger. This idea of building on skills is less important for the gymnasts who aren’t as good at bars and just want to survive it, which I think is why you see more weiler 1/2s in the the Simone Biles and Jordyn Wiebers of the world.

 

[Denn]

I do see the appeal of the Weiler elements.

In MAG, they are rated only a B. And most guys can pull them off. If you have a great cast HS, you have to learn the entry, and yeah, muscle helps.

But I do think that the deductions for pirouettes in WAG play into people’s minds, as well as the many other deductions for posture and form that could play in.

 

[Doug1233]

I never really know how to deduct weilers in WAG. I always assume the perfection is a 180 degree straight body throughout. And a pike should get deducted. And any muscle-up in the kip. Right?

 

[KristyJ]

I’ve always felt a slight hollow should be okay, but not a pike or arch (which you sometimes see as it hits handstand). Elbows/muscling up apply, standard handstand deductions (and look at shoulder angle as the skill completes as I’ve seen shoulders past handstand before the rest of the body.) Rhythm in the skill connections can sometimes be an issue if it was muscled up. I’m sure I’m missing things because that’s off the top of my head.

 

[Doug1233]

The second half of the skill is essentially a kip cast, so I would assume all the regular kip cast deductions should apply, plus body shape/elbows in the first half of the skill.

 

[KristyJ]

Essentially, though the grip can lead to bent elbows a bit more often

 

[GymBeauty]

Coaches and gymnasts want routines they can build on as the Olympics get closer, and don’t want to spend a bunch of time learning a skill that goes nowhere. A weiler kip is a bit better in that you can connect out of it but again it takes you a lot fewer places than a giant blind to jaeger.

How does it “take people less places” than a Giant 1/2 + Jaeger? I see exactly the opposite - putting the Jaeger into a routine is generally a dead end (both in routine construction and skill progression), and frequently something that forces the gymnast to get back to the other side of the bar to complete the routine, causing more deduction.

If a gymnast wants to “build” their routine, then in the scoring system it’s ideal to do a reverse grip element that takes no extra steps to get into and gets easy connection bonus – for the majority of gymnasts that’s going to have to be either a Weiler 1/2 or a Tkatchev 1/2.

A toe circle hecht half (in addition to likely being hard to do deduction free, and there probably being few coaches that still know how to teach them) can’t be connected into or out of, and can’t be built on to learn a new skill.

Oh you can definitely connect into it out of shaposh, or out of any release where you’re able to swing your feet up in time. Hip hecht is the easier connection for sure, but specifically out of a shaposh I think the toe-version would be preferable to some people.

It’s funny, in all these routines with Jaegers that are putting the gymnast on the wrong side of the bar for their dismount, the hip hecht 1/2 should be a friend, getting them back to the other side of the bar with .2 bonus included. But we haven’t seen anyone even try train it, which shows a big lack of consideration for better routine construction. Whoever does it first deserves a prize.

 

[KristyJ]

Jaegers connect easily to Paks and similar transitions, setting a gymnast up for potential three release combos (or more even- Jaeger, Pak, Van Leuwen, Geinger?) that get enormous bonus. Almost every gymnast will want or need to face the low bar at some point anyways for transition purposes. Also, some gymnasts master a layout Jaeger (or the really cool full twisting Jaeger that’s been circulating on social media lately). It’s not a dead end skill at all.

 

[GymBeauty]

Very few routines are trying to connect out of a Jaeger, and there’s no benefit to a Jaeger over a Tkatchev anyway. It’s much more difficult for most people to upgrade a Jaeger to an E or F version than a Tkatchev (not to mention a G Tkatchev, which even Ellie Black can do, who isn’t a great Bars worker overall), and it also seems more difficult to connect out of a Jaeger than a Tkatchev.

So, yes, in addition to the way people are putting Giant 1/2 + Jaeger + Cast 1/2 in their routine just to fulfill the reverse grip requirement, it’s a bad choice competitively for most people to go that route in the first place, as opposed to learning a Weiler 1/2 or Tkatchev 1/2.

 

[KristyJ]

Jaeger to Pak is one of the most common connections we see in elite and even level 10…

 

[GymBeauty]

Only 2 top elite routines used Jaeger + Pak last season, and that’s when the Pike Jaeger was an E and got .2 connection bonus. Now it’s definitely obsolete (and 0 top elite routines are doing D-grade Jaeger + Pak this season); there’s no reason to construct a routine like that if you want to be most competitive. Layout Jaeger is needed for the path be worthwhile, and that element (not to mention the connection) is simply not going to happen for most people.

The main point though: Rebecca Andrade just lost .5 or .6 at Paris Cup on her Giant 1/2 + Jaeger + Cast 1/2 sequence. If she started her routine with a Weiler 1/2 instead, the routine would be worth .1 more and she of course would be getting less than .5 deduction on that element. Win-Win.

Similar things can be said about every American routine right now (except for Konnor McClain, who has already been #blessed by the Weiler 1/2). Also look at Grace McCallum. The best she ever scored was in 2019 with the Weiler 1/2. In 2021 she changed her routine to instead have Toe 1/2, Jaeger, and Cast 1/2, and her scores plummeted (and that is even with the benefit of Pike Jaeger being E).

 

[Doug1233]

Rebecca Andrade just lost .5 or .6 at Paris Cup on her Giant 1/2 + Jaeger + Cast 1/2 sequence

Yea that whole sequence is a bit of a lost cause. If you already have a same bar release, query whether it’s even worth going for the 0.5CR unless you can do it, and the pirouette and cast either side of it, really well.