Senior Gymnasts and New Skills

[rlayt]

Asked and delivered!

makam said:
I think we were spoiled by the Simone era. It always seemed like she was getting a new skill or trying something even harder, bigger, badasser. But really, how often do gymnasts really learn new things in their senior career? Maybe an upgraded vault or a new spin, but it feels like if they start with a double pike as their most difficult pass or BB dismount, that is where they stay. Jade tried with the laid out triple double but it never actually panned out; hell, even Skinner's upgrades never made it to primetime. Did Jordan ever get a single upgrade or just more consistent on the things she already knew how to do? Lee never managed to compete her new skills but the medical issues probably were part of that problem. Though if anyone wants to start a new thread where they school me, I'm game for that.

Here’s a thread to discuss. I don’t have answers unless we are talking about adding a twist or half twist as Godwin did. But it seems uncommon doesn’t it.

 

[JaJa]

Asked and delivered!

makam said:
I think we were spoiled by the Simone.

The period can go right after Simone's name. And yes. So we have to adjust. Because as Aly Raisman said "There's Simone and then there's everybody else."

 

[RedBirdie]

Jade Carey learned bars as a senior. She wasn't doing a single bar release or a shap variation of any kind in her age-16 level 10 season. She did do a pak, which she eventually upgraded to a Bhardwaj.

 

[Passion]

Nastia learned the double front on FX in 2006, her 2nd year as a senior.

Bhardwaj learned the full twisting pak on UB in 2004, her 10th year as a senior.

Chusovitina learned the front handspring double front on VT in 2020, her 8347th year as a senior.

 

[Puffin]

makam said:
hell, even Skinner's upgrades never made it to primetime.

We are all grateful that the delusion spin never made it to primetime

 

[QuietColours]

It's also a bit tricky, because we never know how long athletes have had skills or combos before they show up on the competition floor.

Black debuted her eponymous skill in 2022, her 11th year as a senior.
Marisa Dick did her beam mounts in her 3rd and 4th years as a senior.
Amanar I believe debuted the 2.5 yurchenko in 2000, her 6th year as a senior.
Borden was a 3rd year senior when she debuted the 1/2 twisting straddle jump from the side
Dos Santos was a 2nd year senior when she debuted the Dos Santos II
Khorkina had 8 skills at one point. She couldn't have introduced them all in 1994, but I'm not finding years quickly.
Mustafina was a 4th year senior when she introduced her triple Y

Yes, it is easier for me to just look up named skills and see how old people were when they competed them than it is to try and remember who upgraded to what when.

 

[RAFIKI]

I love a gymnast that works on their weaknesses and keeps improving. Tweddle is the first gymnast that came to mind for me (turned senior in 2001). Her bars changed a lot over the decade between her first European medal (Patras 2002 Euro) and the London Olympic bronze. She also substantially upgraded her floor tumbling. Early 2004 she was a ~9.0 gymnast and by the end of the year she was a 9.5+ floor gymnast at the world cup finals. Tweddle added the 1.5X to her double arabian pass which was a big deal mid-00s. The DDS was also an upgrade although that did deteriorate over her career. I don't know what vaults she had as a junior and therefore what she learned as a senior, but she had a lot of variety there as well (piked barani, 1.5Y, FTT)

 

[rlayt]

I like how people keep coming up with more examples.

 

[Concorde]

Khorkina had 8 skills at one point. She couldn't have introduced them all in 1994, but I'm not finding years quickly.

For Khorkina:

1994 World Championships (Brisbane)
Vault - Round Off 1/2 On to Piked Cuervo
Uneven Bars - Markelov
Balance Beam - Gainered Full Twisting Back Handspring

1995 World Championships
Uneven Bars - Stalder 1 1/2 to Reverse Grip

1996 Olympics
Uneven Bars - Shaposhnikova 1/2

1997 World Championships
Floor Exercise - Leap with 1 1/2 turn in horizontal plane, legs together, landing in front lying support

2000 Olympics
Vault - Round Off 1/2 On to Tucked Rudi

2001 World Championships
Balance Beam - Gainered 2 1/2 Twist Dismount

 

[RAFIKI]

It would be interesting to study this in a quantifiable way. Several of the examples are gymnasts from eras where the COP changed more substantially between quads. Unsurprising given the extra selection pressures (can you tell that I'm a biologist!), but I wonder if this is contributing to makam's original impression that gymnasts tend not to majorly improve as seniors. Is this more common over the last 10 years ? I suppose you'd need tiers of upgrades to differentiate between trivial and hardcore improvements. Longer careers, homogeneity of top routines (looking at you UB), pacing, competitiveness within fields are all going to play a role in this.

 

[Ginger]

I think Joscelyn Roberson upgraded her bars a lot during her senior career. I remember her crappy double tuck dismount in 2022 (her first year as senior). And she didn't have a bar release until I believe 2024?

 

[RedBirdie]

Roberson had a Ray in 2022, and a regular tkatchev in 2023, iirc. Occasionally she'd do a routine without a same bar release, but it's not like she never learned or performed a same bar until 2024.

She was doing a piss poor double layout in 2022. Often with bent knees and hips, but she was not intending to do a double tuck.

 

[Denn]

I'm inclined to name the gainer layout full on beam after Khorkina as well. She did it at Cottbus Cup, which has been an FIG competition for a long time. Back then, performance had to be at Worlds or an Olympics to get the name, but these varying rules really are unfair...

 

[eanda]

I'm inclined to name the gainer layout full on beam after Khorkina as well. She did it at Cottbus Cup, which has been an FIG competition for a long time. Back then, performance had to be at Worlds or an Olympics to get the name, but these varying rules really are unfair...

More so given rules were different for MAG and WAG. My understanding has been men could get credit at Euros well before women did.

 

[MaryClare]

I don’t think this is a rare as people perhaps think. I’d say the majority of gymnasts learn new skills as seniors.

Perhaps it was less common under the 10 system, but in the open scoring era, gymnasts are constantly trying to find the easiest way to increase their difficulty.

Yes there are gymnasts who peak as juniors, including those who go on to have a long career. Vanessa Ferrari for example, don’t think ever reached the difficult she had as a junior/1st year senior ever again but still had a long and successful career.z

More so given rules were different for MAG and WAG. My understanding has been men could get credit at Euros well before women did.

Wow, I didn’t know. How on earth is that fair.

Personally I disagree with continental championships being eligible. World cup meets, fine as these are open to any country.