Event (FIG) Scoring Worlds Routines

[Denn]

oh wow, so that mustafina is a form improvement for her? Thanks for the heads up, I'll steer way clear of watching her qualis cheng then.

She didn't do one. Earlier in this thread, you can see the laidout piked FIG WTC "piked" Podkopayeva vault that she was done dirty by the D-panel for.

 

[RichardL]

She didn't do one. Earlier in this thread, you can see the laidout piked FIG WTC "piked" Podkopayeva vault that she was done dirty by the D-panel for.

Looking at Lia-Monica Fontaine's vault (I wrote out her full name since some people are objecting to an acronym for an "unknown" gymnast but she is now an individual world medalist so LMF from now on at least for me), the exaggeration of the layout position was so ostentatious and seemed clearly to be a response to the threatening judging panel.

Look at Chiles winning silver in 2022 with the same set of vaults. This would have been downgraded by this panel, right? Roberson showed a great layout position and then piked down mildly to stick the landing.

 

[Aeris]

As an example, how much in deductions would you guess that Blakely incurred on her Stalder to Higgins Roll + Piked Jaegar during team finals of the 2023 World Championships?



Stalder to Higgins Roll - Angle of Completion, Between 31 and 45 Degrees Past Handstand (0.3)

Piked Jaegar - Insufficient Height (0.3) + Flexed Feet (0.1) + Bent Arms Upon Regrasp (0.3)

Total Deductions - 1.0

The way judging has been going, it doesn't appear a panel would give her 9.2E if she simply removed the first two elements of the routine (she scored 8.233E). They would scramble to add .5 or so extra deductions because they'd be scared of being outside the "expected" result.

This is evidenced by the exact EF routine she just did at Worlds, with her new opening combo that had a perfect pirouette and a release with only .2 deduction. The rest of the routine was nearly identical to the one above. She got only 8.1E, instead of the high-8 she deserved.

Look at Chiles winning silver in 2022 with the same set of vaults. This would have been downgraded by this panel, right? Roberson showed a great layout position and then piked down mildly to stick the landing.

Chiles definitely wouldn't be downgraded, she's fully straight leading into the upside down position and didn't have history of a problem with the shape. Roberson got hit with reputation judging. They expected more piking based on practices, and since she still did have slight piking before the upside down position, they didn't give benefit of the doubt.

A lot of gymnasts who only have Single twisting yurchenkos and tsuks need to thank their lucky stars that those vaults are bizarrely ineligible to be downgraded to piked.

 

[Denn]

Roberson got hit with reputation judging. They expected more piking based on practices, and since she still did have slight piking before the upside down position, they didn't give benefit of the doubt.

Who told you this?

 

[Aeris]

Who told you this?

Nobody, it's just so clearly what happened. Judges judge based on reputation, politics, and expected results all the time. People are scared of going against the herd and being wrong or outside the "allowed corridor". Also I think in gymnastics judging especially, a culture has been created where the judges think they are competing against each other to prove who can take the most deductions, because that must mean they have better eyes and more knowledge.

 

[makam]

I think half of Josc's problem is that her knees are so soft it just makes everything look unstretched. Maybe that leads to the pike/tuck downgrades she gets.

/agree that the judges seem like they are in a game to see who can deduct hardest because who gives a shit about the athlete?

 

[Sanzhirovka]

But what exactly do you mean when you say she has “soft knees”. How does that look objectively?

 

[onodian]

she is now an individual world medalist so LMF from now on at least for me

Also, that's a GREAT acronym. If she falls unexpectedly you can go: FML, LMF off

 

[makam]

But what exactly do you mean when you say she has “soft knees”. How does that look objectively?

I don't have screenshots but when she is in her vault, her knees are slightly bent when she is supposed to be stretched. And not the one-bent-knee-to-help-with-twisting that the amanar vaulters usually have, both knees.

 

[Doug1233]

She has muscular thighs which affects her leg line and gives the illusion of a slight pike when there is none.

Call me Monica.

 

[Doug1233]

Melnikova DTY - E Score: 9.100



Schoenmaier DTY - E Score: 9.033



Schoenmaier was surely superior?

 

[Doug1233]

Melnikova - 9.1
Schoenmaier - 9.033
Roberson 8.6

Anyone else confused?

Schoenmaier's was vastly superior. Look at that flare at the end.

ETA: Sorry for the double post. The first post said it was "too long" so didn't post, but it in fact had! Throwing in the Roberson datapoint in there too!

 

[Denn]

Schoenmaier vs. Melnikova got roughly the same E-score, and I think that makes sense actually.

1. They both have similar height, distance, overall body positions, pikedowns, and landing positions. So any deductions would be the same for them in these 5 areas.
2. They both open their arms before landing, though Schoenmaier opens a bit wider — but that's not an expectation.
3. Melnikova has an extra tenth for leg form on the preflight, if it was even visible from the side.
4. They both separate their legs in the salto — Melnikova's is much earlier, and Schoenmaier only does it at the end. But I feel like you take 0.1 no matter what for that.
5. Melnikova also crosses her legs.
6. Schoenmaier has a 0.3 hop and Melnikova has a 0.1 hop — and that's how the score evens out.

If Schoenmaier had less of a hop, I would have had her higher by 0.2

 

[Doug1233]

Schoenmaier vs. Melnikova got roughly the same E-score, and I think that makes sense actually.

1. They both have similar height, distance, overall body positions, pikedowns, and landing positions. So any deductions would be the same for them in these 5 areas.
2. They both open their arms before landing, though Schoenmaier opens a bit wider — but that's not an expectation.
3. Melnikova has an extra tenth for leg form on the preflight, if it was even visible from the side.
4. They both separate their legs in the salto — Melnikova's is much earlier, and Schoenmaier only does it at the end. But I feel like you take 0.1 no matter what for that.
5. Melnikova also crosses her legs.
6. Schoenmaier has a 0.3 hop and Melnikova has a 0.1 hop — and that's how the score evens out.

If Schoenmaier had less of a hop, I would have had her higher by 0.2

I couldn't disagree with you more ;-). In pretty much every respect. I thought the screenshots were pretty clear. The only place that Melnikova is superior is distance. Schoenmaier is better in every other aspect of the vault. Including the landing, IMO.

I guess that's why we have a panel!

 

[Denn]

I couldn't disagree with you more ;-). In pretty much every respect. I thought the screenshots were pretty clear. The only place that Melnikova is superior is distance. Schoenmaier is better in every other aspect of the vault. Including the landing, IMO.

I guess that's why we have a panel!

What specific differences (besides the ones I pointed out) are you citing?

 

[Doug1233]

What specific differences (besides the ones I pointed out) are you citing?

All of them! Other than distance.

I edited my post I guess we cross posted.

 

[Denn]

Schoenmaier also has flexed feet vs. Melnikova's pointed feet in that still of them upside down.

#YouHateMelnikova, LOL (I'm kidding)

 

[BB12]

Even if Schoenmaier's appears better in the screenshots, they also arent deduction-less moments from her. For some of them, it is the same deduction amount as Melnikova's too despite the screenshots making it look drastically different.

Anything can look vastly superior in screenshots but using the code, it's reasonable that they come out fairly similar in score.

 

[eanda]

Screen caps can be a great tool for teaching at times, but it's not really fair to pull them out to justify one score against another when the judges aren't using them.

Additionally, we're not seeing this from the same angle as the judges.

 

[Denn]

I also feel like the differences shown — except the leg form as I mentioned — are so small that they shouldn't matter.

But I also don't think gymnastics scoring should require measuring to the nearest centimeter or degree.