Rules we need changed after the Olympics

[Caledi]

In fairness to the code, most of the difficulty of sideways jumps is in the take-off. Landing sideways is arguably easier than landing forwards (for jumps that took off forwards).

 

[Livi]

I’m really not talking about any particular body type at all. In a sport with four different events, everyone has their strengths.

I’m simply stating that it’s not fair that strong vaulters get two chances and can drop a score, while a good bars/beam/floor worker can’t do that on their best events. Every mistake counts.

Also, I’m not a fan of my own “let average count” idea, but I just thought that was a better option than “you can drop your lowest”.

 

[YurchenkoLoop]

Oh wow, that’s surprising to me. I would’ve thought the landing is the harder part as opposed to the takeoff. Thanks!

 

[irichluck21]

Why would it be unfair if it’s an option available to everyone?

Some countries/athletes can only perform one vault family so forcing them to do a second vault could be a disadvantage.

 

[Doug1233]

Well they can just learn another one then?

 

[YurchenkoLoop]

For decades two vaults were performed and the lower score was dropped! It made for exciting final rotations, too

To Rich’s point, yes I’ve thought about how it’s easier for countries with more resources but so is every event already

 

[Doug1233]

Exactly. Some countries don’t have foam pits to practice tumbling.

Are we gonna ban tumbling passes?

 

[irichluck21]

Exactly. Some countries don’t have foam pits to practice tumbling.

Are we gonna ban tumbling passes?

Banning tumbling compared to adding an additional vault is a false equivalency.

 

[Doug1233]

Of course. But it’s the same logic. Just pulled to an extreme to show how the logic doesn’t make sense.

 

[dweiss324]

I struggle to see how asking gymnasts to perform two vaults is in any way unfair. All of the rules of the sport are arbitrary/subjective anyways. You could ask them to perform 4 vaults, all from different families. They’re asked for tumbling diversity (to some degree), why should vault be any different? Gymnasts will adapt.

 

[Denn]

Love that @dweiss324 Two entries is a very reasonable expectation.

 

[Denn]

The argument that some countries can’t do two vaults is simply not correct. In fact, if anything, vault has probably been the apparatus where we have seen the greatest number of countries making finals over the years.

Vault finalists:

2013: 7 nations, including Vietnam, Dominican Republic, UZB
2014: 7 nations, including Vietnam, Mexico
2015: 8 nations, including India, PRK, and Mexico
2016: 8 nations, including gymnasts from India and PRK
2017: 7 nations (2 Canadians)
2018: 7 nations (2 Canadians)
2019: 7 nations (2 Americans)
2020: 6 nations, and Yeo and Moreno were the only gymnasts besides Iordache from nations that don’t typically have teams in a final (Brazil didn’t have a team this time, but it usually does)
2021: 8 nations (including Egypt and Israel, whom I don’t think ever made a women’s final before, and a different Mexican)

BTW, I totally forgot about Janine Berger almost medaling on vault in 2012!

 

[YurchenkoLoop]

Thanks for compiling that data, Denn!! Super cool to see. Yeah, I remember the 2012 BB final having 2 Chinese, 2 Russian, 2 Romanian, and 2 USA gymnasts. Vault definitely has greater representation from countries that are under-resourced.

 

[Livi]

That’s not the unfair point. Dropping the lowest feels unfair, because in every other event, in every competition, every single thing you do counts. There’s no dropping anywhere. Vaulters get a cushion that you can’t get on other events. And logically, that benefits the good vaulters more than others.

It’s the same when vault was scored so much higher than other events (it still does, but its much better now). They lowered the D of bigger vaults, to make it more equivalent to a good bars/beam/floor worker. The goal is to make all events equal. By giving one of them a “drop option” it’s not. In my opinion. I recon I’m almost alone on this

I’m okay with asking two vaults, but make everyone do two vaults and take the average.

 

[irichluck21]

The argument that some countries can’t do two vaults is simply not correct. In fact, if anything, vault has probably been the apparatus where we have seen the greatest number of countries making finals over the years.

Compiling a list of vault finalist from the past 9 years adds nothing to this argument.

The majority of these athletes were/are vaulting specialists and most of whose teams are on the cusp of the top/middle tier of teams.
Many of which saw that vault was a depleted field and were able to take advantage of this.

For example, Yamilet Pena and Dipa Karmakar did make vault finals but it was due to chucking a high rated Produnova as one of the vaults, which even when sat down would bring in a high enough score to make finals.

My point is that there are countries that historically do not have vault specialists and are not typically known for having strong vaulters. Currently Spain, Belgium, Netherlands (minus Geurts who was never given a chance at Worlds until this year) do not have the strongest of vaulters. Asking these countries to learn an additional vault would put them at a disadvantage.

 

[Denn]

I agree that every vault should count, but one counterpoint to your post: vaulters don’t get a cushion due to how high or low the D-scores on vault are.

Raising or lowering vault D-scores doesn’t benefit or hurt gymnasts. If everyone gets 0.4 or everyone loses 0.4, it keeps the playing field level, even for AA and team finals. The only place where it might impact is events like the Swiss Cup, in which gymnasts choose just a couple apparatus to do.

The reason vault D-scores were lowered in the women’s code was so that, as athletes rotate from apparatus to apparatus, the AA and team totals don’t jump around due to that shift in vault scores. It’s easier to track who’s leading / trailing without accounting for the shift in vault scores.

What’s even more important is to get the right spread of vault D-scores. For example, is an extra half twist correctly rated as an extra 0.4 in D-score? Or should it be 0.3 or 0.5 or even variable? Back in 2006, the men’s vault D-scores were half as spread out and so many guys realized that there was no value in learning a hard vault. (I complained about it and showed some data, and they changed it.) Meanwhile the Amanar was worth 0.7 more than the DTY, so that gave gymnasts who could crank that extra half twist a big boost.

Vault scores are indeed less spread out now than the scores on other apparatus. Requiring two vaults and taking deductions from a single 10.0 E-score would fix that, BTW.

 

[Denn]

You basically made the argument for me. Change the rules, and Spain, Belgium, and Netherlands will figure it out as well as they figured out the other apparatus – which isn’t that great, because their programs aren’t that great.

It’s not that Spain, Belgium, and Netherlands can’t teach their gymnasts second vault – they all have the capacity, as all of these specialists from other countries show. They just don’t have incentive.

 

[onodian]

I’d frankly feel better about asking two families/two vaults if difficulty was taken from some of the other events. I feel there’s enough strain on the athletes. If we had a 6-count sport, then sure, ask for two vaults from everybody, but right now that’s kind of my biggest point against this. I feel we need a little less stress in skill number rather than more, and a whole new family of vault is mind of a big skill in terms of training time devoted to this, I think, cause I really have no clue about this.

 

[irichluck21]

It’s not that Spain, Belgium, and Netherlands can’t teach their gymnasts second vault – they all have the capacity, as all of these specialists from other countries show. They just don’t have incentive.

Again, your point is lost.
The vaulting finalist specifically chose to train and compete a 2nd vault. That is not the priority of other countries. Pena and Karmakar specifically chucked the double front vault because even when sat down the D score carried them into vault finals and history making for their country. It also allowed for Olympic qualification.

There is plenty incentive for any country to have athletes train a 2nd vault…lack of depth on that event means limited competition for a finals berth, they just chose to focus on their team and all around chances.
Requiring a 2nd vault from all competing is a disadvantage because now time needs to be spent learning and training a second vault.

If the rule was that all gymnasts had to do 2 vaults and the average was the average of both vaults AND a gymnast can opt to repeat the same vault, whereas anyone wanting to make VT finals had to do 2 different families, that might be an OK option. But really what is the point then if an athlete can just repeat the same vault.
That is what they did in 1997-2000 and it was removed from the next COP update in 2002.
(IIRC 2001, two vaults were needed in prelims and could be repeated but in team finals they had to be two different vaults but from the same family is allowed)

 

[Denn]

Fine, it will be a “disadvantage”, but it will be a disadvantage for everyone.

Even the Americans, most of whom haven’t trained a second vault family for years.