REWIND : WEEK SIX 28/10 : 2008 US National Championships

[ArnoldRimmer]

and some cheating Chinese

Absolutely, and none of that is Marta's fault of course.

But the US still had enough talent to have been up there with China in 08, even on the clearly unfair, non-level playing field that China had managed to create. Bearing in mind it's not like we know for sure He Kexin was the only one with a fake DOB either. Well Cheng Fei probably too, but she was obviously of age in 08 and it might actually have been detrimental by that point.

If Memmel and Sacramone hadn't been dragged through multiple rounds of peaking when everyone knew they were locks, and the US had still lost anyway because China were cheating, no blame for mismanagement could attach to Marta. But it's a measure of how good the US top 4 were on paper that they could still potentially have won, even having to compete under a different set of rules to the Chinese.

very true... it also took 3 falls from Nabz for the US to get that close though

China fucking up too. They were probably better on paper than the US in 2010, and counted 2 falls whilst only six tenths off gold. Rotterdam tends to be read as a failure for the US because of coming so close to the title and missing out.. but they arguably overachieved.

 

[RedBirdie]

Bearing in mind it's not like we know for sure He Kexin was the only one with a fake DOB either. Well Cheng Fei probably too, but she was obviously of age in 08 and it might actually have been detrimental by that point.

At the risk of completely derailing this thread and re-litigating a topic that's been repeatedly beaten into the ground.....Way back in 2008, a WWG member who previously lived in China and was able to read the provincial databases that were accessible online told me every Chinese gymnast, going back to the 1990s, had at least one year added to their real age, but more commonly two years. No one ever competed under their actual date of birth. Most of the Beijing team was likely underage

 

[ArnoldRimmer]

At the risk of completely derailing this thread and re-litigating a topic that's been repeatedly beaten into the ground.....Way back in 2008, a WWG member who previously lived in China and was able to read the provincial databases that were accessible online told me every Chinese gymnast, going back to the 1990s, had at least one year added to their real age, but more commonly two years. No one ever competed under their actual date of birth. Most of the Beijing team was likely underage

Yeah, I remember it well!

The approach I generally take is that there are some countries and time periods where one wouldn't bet anything of value that any particular DOB is accurate. Which isn't to say that any named individual from a random Romanian world cup team in 1985 or whatever was underage, just that it wouldn't be a surprise if they were. In Cheng Fei's case, you may remember the picture of the birthday cake with the wrong number of candles?

Though even if we assume He Kexin was the only one who was underage, I don't actually think it's possible to isolate the matter in that way and say they'd have won without her anyway. We don't know what other decisions would've been made, the mental impact of having that sort of advantage, what injuries there might have been if they'd needed another bars worker etc. By the same token, Cheng Fei might have been a better, or worse gymnast in 08 if she'd not been competing in Athens when she was 14. There are so many variables when you have a programme that was playing to a different rule book over a sustained period.

 

[RAFIKI]

I remember wwgym posts from 2007 saying that it was a shame He Kexin and another were too young for Beijing because they would be a big help.

Another good choice and I agree that it would be weird to be a current US elite watching this competition. I'm away this weekend so may not be able to watch and/or write my normal essay!

 

[irichluck21]

He Kexin was a junior in 2007 with a 1994 DOB. I vividly recall the discussion around her and looked forward to her in London.

All of a sudden she had a 1992 DOB and was eligible to compete.

China knew they had to stack bars because that was USA's weakest event. They wanted to win gold at home desperately.

China cheated in 2000, wasn't caught by that point and definitely cheated again. Cheng Fei confessed she was underage in Athens. Yang Yun confessed she was underage in Sydney.

We all know it happened. The only problem is FIG won't acknowledge it, they would never have either if Dong Fongxiao's mistake didn't happen.

This article has evidence of He Kexin's DOB being changed.

Baidu cache offers more evidence of underage Chinese gymnasts

Gumshoe hackers have found cached data in Chinese search engine Baidu that …

arstechnica.com

I don't believe in the BS clerical error when changing gyms.

 

[ArnoldRimmer]

He Kexin was a junior in 2007 with a 1994 DOB. I vividly recall the discussion around her and looked forward to her in London.

All of a sudden she had a 1992 DOB and was eligible to compete.

China knew they had to stack bars because that was USA's weakest event. They wanted to win gold at home desperately.

China cheated in 2000, wasn't caught by that point and definitely cheated again. Cheng Fei confessed she was underage in Athens. Yang Yun confessed she was underage in Sydney.

We all know it happened. The only problem is FIG won't acknowledge it, they would never have either if Dong Fongxiao's mistake didn't happen.

This article has evidence of He Kexin's DOB being changed.

Baidu cache offers more evidence of underage Chinese gymnasts

Gumshoe hackers have found cached data in Chinese search engine Baidu that …

arstechnica.com

I don't believe in the BS clerical error when changing gyms.

Cheng Fei said that? I wasn't aware. Thought it was just the birthday cake with the wrong number of candles that alerted us.

All of us who were here in the noughties remember hearing about He Kexin before she was born in 1992, I expect.

 

[Hatsumomo]

This is the first time I’m hearing Cheng Fei admitting she was underage in Athens, too. But yes, I do distinctly remember somebody posting and translating an article and Weibo comments about He Kexin in mid-2007 that mentioned she was 13 and a shame she wasn’t eligible for Beijing. And that when the controversy gained media attention, somebody did into the internet archives and found the DOB list.

 

[MaryClare]

If anyone genuinely believes that He Kexin was old enough to compete in Beijing, I have a Romanov samovar to sell you

 

[RedBirdie]

Here's Day 1 of championships, if anyone's interested.

 

[ArnoldRimmer]

It's interesting to watch this knowing the US still thought they were the favourites for the Olympic title then.

 

[irichluck21]

I am pretty sure I read correctly that Cheng Fei said she was 14 in Athens, but I am not 100% sure of it. I want to say the interview was from 2021-2022 ish. I'll have to go back and check.

Either way we know China cheated in 2000. They definitely cheated in 2008. At least one member was underage, if not half the team and potentially 4/6.

If only USA was better paced back then, but now Memmel and Sacramone are taking a different approach and it seems to be working, even though athletes are still getting injured, as it is the nature of the sport, athletes are at least able to make a choice.

 

[RichardL]

Jones, DiCello, and Blakely all taking themselves out with injury this year is definitely not a good look (3/5 of a very possible Olympic team), but of course the Olympic year always has some casualties.

 

[ArnoldRimmer]

Jones, DiCello, and Blakely all taking themselves out with injury this year is definitely not a good look (3/5 of a very possible Olympic team), but of course the Olympic year always has some casualties.

This year is a special case too, because of the three year quad. If the same thing happens in 2028, it'll be a bigger problem.

 

[Hatsumomo]

Jones, DiCello, and Blakely all taking themselves out with injury this year is definitely not a good look (3/5 of a very possible Olympic team), but of course the Olympic year always has some casualties.

In the end, the USA had a very good showing at the Olympics, with the FX bronze situation adding a little razzle-dazzle. It helped that they had two-thirds of the Tokyo team to fill out the team.

 

[CameliasFingerpaint]

Absolutely, and none of that is Marta's fault of course.

But the US still had enough talent to have been up there with China in 08, even on the clearly unfair, non-level playing field that China had managed to create. Bearing in mind it's not like we know for sure He Kexin was the only one with a fake DOB either. Well Cheng Fei probably too, but she was obviously of age in 08 and it might actually have been detrimental by that point.

If Memmel and Sacramone hadn't been dragged through multiple rounds of peaking when everyone knew they were locks, and the US had still lost anyway because China were cheating, no blame for mismanagement could attach to Marta. But it's a measure of how good the US top 4 were on paper that they could still potentially have won, even having to compete under a different set of rules to the Chinese.

China fucking up too. They were probably better on paper than the US in 2010, and counted 2 falls whilst only six tenths off gold. Rotterdam tends to be read as a failure for the US because of coming so close to the title and missing out.. but they arguably overachieved.

As much as I am thrilled to assign blame to anything Martha does, there is nothing she could have done for the US team to have gotten gold in Beijing. I don't see how the US makes up a 2.375 point deficit. Sacramone at her best would have gotten 0.9 back on beam. Memmel could mayyybe have added a point on FX with her trials day 2 routine (side note, 2008 trials FX scoring may have been the most fictional US domestic scoring in history), and then maybe 0.3 more on bars. That's still only 2.2. He Kexin was the difference maker here. I just don't see where the US gets anymore tenths.

 

[ArnoldRimmer]

As much as I am thrilled to assign blame to anything Martha does, there is nothing she could have done for the US team to have gotten gold in Beijing. I don't see how the US makes up a 2.375 point deficit. Sacramone at her best would have gotten 0.9 back on beam. Memmel could mayyybe have added a point on FX with her trials day 2 routine (side note, 2008 trials FX scoring may have been the most fictional US domestic scoring in history), and then maybe 0.3 more on bars. That's still only 2.2. He Kexin was the difference maker here. I just don't see where the US gets anymore tenths.

The extra part of this is what China and the US did in the final rotation, once the Sacramone fall settled the matter. Cheng Fei and Shawn both watered down. Neither would've been able to do that if the title was still undecided.

Shawn played safe but actually controlled her full difficulty very well across Beijing. Its likely that would've been at least 15.4, not the 15.1 she settled for when it didn't matter.

Cheng was the more inconsistent of the two, and only had a 50/50 hit ratio for full difficulty tumbling in Beijing. She would not have had the luxury of watering down if the US hadn't already lost it. And we know that wasn't necessarily going to work out for her.

 

[Lisaelaine80]

I think cheating does matter. Nastia could have another gold medal. If YYL was underage, then her AA and UB medals belong to others.

 

[Hatsumomo]

Take out YYL, you get Semenova for bronze. I'm trying to discern the standings if, in addition to eliminating YYL, Shawn's Amanar was devalued to a DTY. If you just take out the .7, she just barely stays in silver position over Semenova. Somebody who knows that Code way better could have a more accurate answer. I think either way we would've been saved from Nistor taking bronze.

 

[ArnoldRimmer]

Take out YYL, you get Semenova for bronze. I'm trying to discern the standings if, in addition to eliminating YYL, Shawn's Amanar was devalued to a DTY. If you just take out the .7, she just barely stays in silver position over Semenova. Somebody who knows that Code way better could have a more accurate answer. I think either way we would've been saved from Nistor taking bronze.

Yes, Nistor would've needed Johnson or Semenova to make a big error even with the Amanar devalued.

 

[Denn]

So why hasn't He Kexin's underage gold medal been contested?