Revisiting Past Age Falsifications

[RedBirdie]

And a follow-up to the Gymnastics History link posted earlier

How Romania Broke the Age Rules and Why the FIG Looked Away – Gymnastics History

www.gymnastics-history.com

 

[phoenix7]

Didn’t Silivas say in an interview, that she didn’t want short hair but someone in the federation made her cut her hair.

Short hair for women was in fashion at the time but more like Dorte Thummler’s hair at Seoul. Though maybe in the East it was a different style (Silivas, Ulrike Klotz in 88).

I listened to an interview once (the skating lesson? Or an American TV production?) where she explained that the gymnasts all gave each other trendy short cuts before the Seoul Olympics in 1988. Executives from the FRG had fits at the results and conducted them to Bucharest's finest hair salon to undo the damage ...

 

[IratePanda]

The Romanians had

Didn’t Silivas say in an interview, that she didn’t want short hair but someone in the federation made her cut her hair.

Short hair for women was in fashion at the time but more like Dorte Thummler’s hair at Seoul. Though maybe in the East it was a different style (Silivas, Ulrike Klotz in 88).

Klotz had a full-on mullet, which was a very popular style for American guys back then.

Fun fact: From ages 14-16, I had the same haircut as Gabrielle Faehnrich/GDR. At the end of tenth grade (1986), I started growing my hair and eventually got a perm with poufy bangs. I consciously avoided the Romanian poodlehead. In fact, when my best friend learned that I was getting a perm, she said, "If you show up at school looking like Daniela Fucking Silivas, I'll pretend I don't know you."

 

[phoenix7]

And a follow-up to the Gymnastics History link posted earlier

How Romania Broke the Age Rules and Why the FIG Looked Away – Gymnastics History

www.gymnastics-history.com

It's all really interesting stuff - thank you. I do think you'd need to add a couple of points to get the full picture - first, that the USSR engaged in exactly the same practice, starting as far as I can see at exactly the same time - 1981. Obviously didn't continue so long (the gymnastics or the state), although we have had whispers now about Karpenko.

Second, anyone like me whose (alas, unedited) passport shows a birthdate before the 1980s, will remember very well the horrors that emerged from Romania and Romanian orphanages especially after 1989. I'm not surprised that the press there was relatively unmoved by revelations about teenagers being slightly younger teenagers, at that point. The analysis is really interesting and seems symptomatic of the continuing problems with both FIG and FRG, but the falsifications themselves I don't find particularly surprising. Certainly content that the statute of limitations applies. If you try to retcon 1981-86 in particular without falsifications, things get very complex very fast!

 

[CameliasFingerpaint]

Does anyone remember that hot mic that Martha was caught on at 2013 worlds PT complaining about the Chinese Gymnasts’ ages?

 

[phoenix7]

I remember @MaryClare explaining that using hairspray was a serious status symbol in 1980s USSR, so I'm guessing something like that was going on with 1988 Romanian hair (not just Silivas's) too!

Maybe that is why Silivas as gold medal hope got the very biggest hair.

 

[phoenix7]

Does anyone remember that hot mic that Martha was caught on at 2013 worlds PT complaining about the Chinese Gymnasts’ ages?

I didn't know about that! But Bart Conner's commentary in 1985 suggests that nobody was too bothered about Romanian ages back then ...

 

[IratePanda]

Just to put Chinese age falsification into context, various forms of cheating were (and maybe still are) rampant in the PRC. When I studied there in the early 90s, I knew several college students who were several years older than their official age. Apparently, they were too old to sit for the university entrance exams, so they fudged some paperwork to make themselves eligible. When I taught English there several years later, my students shamelessly copied one another's homework and exams. When I questioned one of the better students about it, she said she felt obligated to help classmates with weaker English. If she didn't, they might fail--and also blame her for being stuck-up and individualistic. It was all a means to an end.

And don't even get me started on bribery. When I wanted to travel during Chinese New Year, I nearly failed to get train tickets because I didn't make it worth the station master's while. The same student who explained cheating to me said, "Silly girl, you should have given him a carton of cigarettes and a big bottle of mao tai."

Lest you think society was entirely Machiavellian, I did have a number of wonderful experiences that didn't involve a quid pro quo. But I've already digressed enough.

 

[MaryClare]

I remember @MaryClare explaining that using hairspray was a serious status symbol in 1980s USSR, so I'm guessing something like that was going on with 1988 Romanian hair (not just Silivas's) too!

Maybe that is why Silivas as gold medal hope got the very biggest hair.

Yes that is true. When my grandmother was a ballet student (1960s) they had to use home made things to slick back their hair, hairspray was reserved for performances only. However I would doubt that by the 80s it was particularly difficult to get hairspray especially for elite athletes. But yes, if you look at the fashions of the USSR and other eastern bloc countries, “big hair” was a bit of a status symbol for decades. Whether it be bouffants in the 60s or mullets in the 80s.

The one thing I am not sure about is the prevalence of yarn instead of ribbons. I don’t think ribbons were in short supply. Big ribbons were and still are commonplace for girls on the first day of school. When I asked my grandmother about it, she looked at me as if I was some uneducated peasant and said Lara I have never tied pieces of wool my daughters hair. Mind you, she’s a ballet teacher and I work in artistic gymnastics, so she probably does think I’m an uneducated peasant.

The only sort of political/cultural explanation I can think of for the short hair is that quite often, communist countries wanted to portray themselves as more progressive/modern than the West particularly regarding how the role of women is viewed.

 

[eanda]

In the 1976 special Nadia from Romania, with Flip Wilson, Szabo is shown as a seven-year-old. Presuming this exhibition took place in 1976 (it looks like 1976 Nadia, rather than 1975), was this just a mistake, or has there been anything else suggesting Szabo was really born in 1969? She says 1968 and her birthday was changed to 1967.

I'm another who didn't buy into the Silivas love.

 

[IratePanda]

In the 1976 special Nadia from Romania, with Flip Wilson, Szabo is shown as a seven-year-old. Presuming this exhibition took place in 1976 (it looks like 1976 Nadia, rather than 1975), was this just a mistake, or has there been anything else suggesting Szabo was really born in 1969? She says 1968 and her birthday was changed to 1967.

I'm another who didn't buy into the Silivas love.

Karolyi said in his memoir (or maybe it was MLR's) that Szabo was 15 in LA, which would make 1969 totally plausible. But we have to consider the source.

 

[MaryClare]

In the 1976 special Nadia from Romania, with Flip Wilson, Szabo is shown as a seven-year-old. Presuming this exhibition took place in 1976 (it looks like 1976 Nadia, rather than 1975), was this just a mistake, or has there been anything else suggesting Szabo was really born in 1969? She says 1968 and her birthday was changed to 1967.

I'm another who didn't buy into the Silivas love.

If Szabó was born in 1969, she won junior euros when she was 11

 

[phoenix7]

I remember once trying to make sense of Szabo's age and giving up. But in case anyone else can work it out ...

Her birthday was in January (1967, 1968 or 1969)

In 2018, she herself put her age at 50

Ecaterina Szabo: We were like little robots – Gymnovosti

eng.gymnovosti.com

That would give a 1968 birthdate

According to Bela Karolyi in the book he co-authored with Mary-Lou Retton, she started at his school at five (under regulation age) because her father dumped her there and ran away.

According to the Annals of Romanian Gymnastics, she was competing at a junior level (IIa) group in 1972, along with an Ana Szabo. Is this likely at age 3 / 4 / 5, even perhaps trailing an elder sister?

Karolyi also claimed that the Romanian Federation changed Szabo's age from 13 to 15 in 1981. That could work with a 1968 or 67 birth date, and of course it suggested that Karolyi wasn't responsible because he defected in March that year.

But in May 1980 European Juniors, commentators already believed she was thirteen. That would be a 1967 birth date, and it's obvious Szabo was already aged up by then, before Karolyi defected. Her age was consistent after that: in 1983, at world championships, her age was allegedly 16, and at the 1984 Olympics it was 17.

So, she had already been aged up by 1980. If it was a two year leap, as Karolyi claimed, she was born in 1969 and then yes, she would have been seven in 1976. But if that's the case - dreadful thought - she was already living and training with the Karolyis at three.

All I can conclude is:

Karolyi was lying about who aged her up and when.
She started with the Karolyis horribly young.

And to speculate:

Chances are he made up the story about her father abandoning her to explain why he had accepted such a young child.
She could certainly have been seven in 1976, or maybe he just aged her down for the kudos ...

 

[Puffin]

I remember Mostepanova's birthday moving around a fair bit - not just the year but the month as well - I'm pretty sure that at one time her birthday was December 31st ..... not suspicious at all

In fact IIRC there were several rather young looking gymnasts that had late December birthdays (allegedly) - Gurova I think was December 30th

 

[phoenix7]

I remember Mostepanova's birthday moving around a fair bit - not just the year but the month as well - I'm pretty sure that at one time her birthday was December 31st ..... not suspicious at all

In fact IIRC there were several rather young looking gymnasts that had late December birthdays (allegedly) - Gurova I think was December 30th

Oksana Omelianchik also had a 31st December birthday at one point! (But her only major 1984 competition was the Friendship Games - did they actually follow FIG age requirements I wonder?)

 

[ArnoldRimmer]

For Szabo, I'm inclined to say 1968 makes most sense. That Romania added a year at some point in the 70s to make her of age for 81 worlds, before knowing about the rule change.

The main evidence for 1969 is Bela. He's a known unreliable narrator and has an incentive to say it didn't happen on his watch. The documentary could've been an error, or accurate repetition of a lie they were told for whatever reason, to show off or whatever.

Balanced against that, Szabo herself has always said 1968, for the whole of the time she could speak freely afaik. It seems too much pointlessness for her to admit the fake DOB but keep lying about what it was, alongside Romania changing it for no good reason since even a 1969 DOB would've made her LA eligible. There was no reason for them to change it as late as 1981.

I know quite often false DOBs don't make much sense. But this is multiple odd things for no reason, or Bela being full of shit. Ockham's Razor would suggest Option B.

 

[phoenix7]

For Szabo, I'm inclined to say 1968 makes most sense. That Romania added a year at some point in the 70s to make her of age for 81 worlds, before knowing about the rule change.

The main evidence for 1969 is Bela. He's a known unreliable narrator and has an incentive to say it didn't happen on his watch. The documentary could've been an error, or accurate repetition of a lie they were told for whatever reason, to show off or whatever.

Balanced against that, Szabo herself has always said 1968, for the whole of the time she could speak freely afaik. It seems too much pointlessness for her to admit the fake DOB but keep lying about what it was, alongside Romania changing it for no good reason since even a 1969 DOB would've made her LA eligible. There was no reason for them to change it as late as 1981.

I know quite often false DOBs don't make much sense. But this is multiple odd things for no reason, or Bela being full of shit. Ockham's Razor would suggest Option B.

Yes, that's my feeling too. The irony is of course that if they changed her from a 1968 birthdate, they got no benefit from it. She'd have qualified for 1983 anyway.

It's Lavinia Agache who went from 13 to 15 in 1981. I wonder if the age on her passport was the reason she travelled on Szabo's, in January that year?

 

[KorbutFan]

Did competitions even require passports? I always thought the federations simply listed the DOBs on the registration forms?

 

[eanda]

I agree on 1968 making sense with Szabo. It was just the very early record of her being mentioned as 7 in 1976 that even made me wonder if others had questioned it before.

I found the minimum age change to 15 was voted on in the summer of 1980. Perhaps she was aged the one year with an eye to 1981, before knowing or suspecting what was coming.

 

[phoenix7]

Did competitions even require passports? I always thought the federations simply listed the DOBs on the registration forms?

It wasn't a major competition, but the organiser of the event where Agache impersonated Szabo said he would only ever have looked at passports if there was a query about the identity of the gymnast, i.e. never, really. They were only used to help with travel arrangements



I suppose lots of young Americans competing in the USA wouldn't necessarily have had passports anyway, in the 1980s or even later.