Revisiting Past Age Falsifications

[MaryClare]

There was a Tim on GGMB, I have some montages saved from him. Didn't he run Gymstands?

There was definitely a Tim who ran gymnstands

 

[RedBirdie]

Possibly of interest to some. Dong Fangxiao's mother falling on the sword is heartbreaking to me.

How China Explained the Dong Fangxiao Case – Gymnastics History

 

[RedBirdie]

Gymnastics History has a new piece up, this time on Yang Yilin's suspect age.

What I've gotten from all of these is that FIG and IOC don't care, as long as all the falsified documents match. All other evidence is ignored.

Yang Yilin and the Persistence of Her 1993 Birth Year – Gymnastics History

 

[irichluck21]

What we have learned is that China has age falsified at least a dozen gymnasts probably more for as long as they have been competing at the FIG level. Since 1979 I think is when China joined the FIG.

 

[RedBirdie]

a dozen a quad, more likely. I wouldn't be surprised if they falsified every single gymnast for 20 years.

 

[QuietColours]

There's long been a quiet murmur that China would falsify the age of any promising gymnast. Uncle Tim's just the first English-language reporter to put together detailed evidence for most of the athletes.

FIG/IOC have absolutely no interest in calling governments liars. They'll only act if the official paperwork directly contradicts itself and it is made public (and has public outcry) within the statute of limitations--basically, if it's too blatant and public to ignore.

 

[MaryClare]

I wonder if there is a combination of cultural acceptance and bureaucratic efficiency that makes it relatively straight forward for China to still be doing this, and getting away with it.

Like I probably could if I wanted to, change the DOB of one of my gymnasts. But it would involve identifying and gambling on talent wayyy early in their gymnastics career. And more crucially, need physical documents stamped and signed by about 8 different officials and result in a paper trail from here to St Petersburg.

How many gymnasts did China falsify that we don’t even suspect because they never made it big enough to be on anyone’s radar. Especially given the prestige there is of winning things from your province. Is a lot of this being done at provincial level and gymnasts are arriving in Beijing already with a new birthday?

 

[Aizheng]

Some of it might also have to do with China’s different conception of age and birthdays. Traditionally, you’re born at 1 years old, and your age increases during lunar new year (instead of your actual birthday). Depending on where you’re born, your Chinese age might be almost 2 years ahead of your Western age.

Adding this traditional understanding to a bureaucracy that at that point was quite informal and with lots of ways to skirt around the rules (compliance as a spectrum), and the notion that younger athletes are more successful, I can definitely see how age falsification would be widespread (and I assume, often, the kids don’t necessarily know, especially if they’ve celebrated their Chinese birthday and used their Chinese age within the family).

identifying talent also used to not be as much of an issue, since China’s gymnastics program was quite centralized (at the province-level) really early on. Kids tended to train at the training center starting at age 5/6, and usually board there as well, so I can imagine that there was just a pipeline in place to make sure that they are made older once they reach 10 or so.

Much less likely today, not least because there’s been pushback against some of the centralization and China has the most rigorous ID system in the world currently, IMO.

 

[RedBirdie]

I don't buy the "China's different conception of age and birthdays" excuse one bit. It's always been very clear what the birth year was to be eligible. The scrubbing of publicly available data, and the openness about He Kexin age and birthdate in 2007 and even very early 2008, makes it very clear that the falsifying of ages happened at the very top levels and was very deliberate.

 

[MaryClare]

I don't buy the "China's different conception of age and birthdays" excuse one bit. It's always been very clear what the birth year was to be eligible. The scrubbing of publicly available data, and the openness about He Kexin age and birthdate in 2007 and even very early 2008, makes it very clear that the falsifying of ages happened at the very top levels and was very deliberate.

I agree. I don’t think there is any mistake or ignorance regarding the rules. But as I mentioned in my own post, I wonder if the cultural norms in China not just about birthdays and age, but also regarding cheating and falsification, there exists an environment where parents, coaches, officials, everyone, is happy to go along with it.

 

[Aizheng]

I don't buy the "China's different conception of age and birthdays" excuse one bit. It's always been very clear what the birth year was to be eligible. The scrubbing of publicly available data, and the openness about He Kexin age and birthdate in 2007 and even very early 2008, makes it very clear that the falsifying of ages happened at the very top levels and was very deliberate.

I probably was unclear, I did not mean this as an excuse, but more as an explanation for why it could be easier to do it in China, from a practical perspective. I don’t for a minute believe that the powers in Chinese gymnastics did not know what they were doing, but I can imagine that some parents and girls were not entirely clear.

 

[Aizheng]

I agree. I don’t think there is any mistake or ignorance regarding the rules. But as I mentioned in my own post, I wonder if the cultural norms in China not just about birthdays and age, but also regarding cheating and falsification, there exists an environment where parents, coaches, officials, everyone, is happy to go along with it.

This is a very difficult one for me, as someone who spent multiple years in China. My experience is that cultural norms in China regarding cheating are different, and this also bears out in data. For instance, looking at academic fraud or fake papers, China is proportionally over-represented, even taking into account the massive size of their population. But of course that does not mean that every individual Chinese person will cheat or has a pre-disposition for it…

 

[IratePanda]

This is a very difficult one for me, as someone who spent multiple years in China. My experience is that cultural norms in China regarding cheating are different, and this also bears out in data. For instance, looking at academic fraud or fake papers, China is proportionally over-represented, even taking into account the massive size of their population. But of course that does not mean that every individual Chinese person will cheat or has a pre-disposition for it…

Yes, I lived in China on and off from 1990-2001, incluidng one year as a teacher. I may have mentioned in this thread (or a similar one) that cheating was rampant in my classes. I also knew several people whose ages had been altered so that they could enter school early, or remain eligible for certain degree programs that were technically off-limits to older students. None of this sat well with me (it still doesn't), but as an outsider--a guest, really--I wasn't in a position to judge, let alone fix anythng.

 

[flappergirl]

There's long been a quiet murmur that China would falsify the age of any promising gymnast. Uncle Tim's just the first English-language reporter to put together detailed evidence for most of the athletes.

FIG/IOC have absolutely no interest in calling governments liars. They'll only act if the official paperwork directly contradicts itself and it is made public (and has public outcry) within the statute of limitations--basically, if it's too blatant and public to ignore.

A Chinese gymnast said once, in a matter of fact way, we all have a real age and a sports age. Ive stopped worrying about it.

 

[OnoNoKomachi]

When it comes to cheating in sports, we Americans take a back seat to no one.
We have Lance Armstrong, in addition to multitudes in track and field.

Many of them have had crazy excuses, like being rubbed with testosterone gel by a massage therapist or taking Extenze male enhancement pills.

I guess that there is more cheating in countries with authoritarian governments heavily invested in sporting pride. China and Russia fit that profile.

 

[Kittentoes]

Some of it might also have to do with China’s different conception of age and birthdays. Traditionally, you’re born at 1 years old, and your age increases during lunar new year (instead of your actual birthday). Depending on where you’re born, your Chinese age might be almost 2 years ahead of your Western age.

Adding this traditional understanding to a bureaucracy that at that point was quite informal and with lots of ways to skirt around the rules (compliance as a spectrum), and the notion that younger athletes are more successful, I can definitely see how age falsification would be widespread (and I assume, often, the kids don’t necessarily know, especially if they’ve celebrated their Chinese birthday and used their Chinese age within the family).

Remember when Steve Nunno tried to use that for Mina Kim?

 

[MaryClare]

When it comes to cheating in sports, we Americans take a back seat to no one.
We have Lance Armstrong, in addition to multitudes in track and field.

Many of them have had crazy excuses, like being rubbed with testosterone gel by a massage therapist or taking Extenze male enhancement pills.

I guess that there is more cheating in countries with authoritarian governments heavily invested in sporting pride. China and Russia fit that profile.

Yes it’s interesting how Russia and China take very different approaches when it comes to breaking rules. As I said, we absolutely love paper. And stamping things. That does not lend itself to document and record falsification.

But I disagree that America is just as bad. Yes there have been some high profile doping cases but these have been the decisions of individual athletes and their coaching team. The US government nor its culture encourages cheating, quite the opposite. If Lance Armstrong was Russian, we’d find it all hilarious and it would endear even more people to him!

 

[JaJa]

When it comes to cheating in sports, we Americans take a back seat to no one.
We have Lance Armstrong, in addition to multitudes in track and field.

Many of them have had crazy excuses, like being rubbed with testosterone gel by a massage therapist or taking Extenze male enhancement pills.

I guess that there is more cheating in countries with authoritarian governments heavily invested in sporting pride. China and Russia fit that profile.

You can just put a period after the word "governments." The heightened level of corruption and cheating in authoritative countries is not limited to sports. Its across industries and governmental and social and professional segments.

 

[IratePanda]

But I disagree that America is just as bad. Yes there have been some high profile doping cases but these have been the decisions of individual athletes and their coaching team. The US government nor its culture encourages cheating, quite the opposite. If Lance Armstrong was Russian, we’d find it all hilarious and it would endear even more people to him!

Not necessarily. Although many Americans might abhor cheating in sports they will tolerate it in other areas. Academic dishonesty is a serious and growing concern, especially with the rise of AI. Some of my colleagues have shared horror stories about papers (even senior theses) that were obvious products of ChatGPT or Gemini.

Some people even regard cheating as a sign of high intelligence. Why do the hard work if you can find shortcuts or pay some chump to do it for you? Case in point: my sister-in-law's scumbag of a husband. He got into an Ivy League school only because his father agreed to make some huge donations. As a college student, he didn't do any of his own work. He paid someone to write all of his essays and exams. He's 60 now and he still boasts about this. He also looks down on anyone who puts in 14-hour days just to pay the mortgage. Meanwhile, he's a problem gambler who's been banned from numerous casinos for card-counting.

Apologies for the digression. My point is that the US is not a bastion of fair play. I don't even think we have a universally accepted definition of the concept.

 

[CameliasFingerpaint]

Not necessarily. Although many Americans might abhor cheating in sports they will tolerate it in other areas. Academic dishonesty is a serious and growing concern, especially with the rise of AI. Some of my colleagues have shared horror stories about papers (even senior theses) that were obvious products of ChatGPT or Gemini.

Some people even regard cheating as a sign of high intelligence. Why do the hard work if you can find shortcuts or pay some chump to do it for you? Case in point: my sister-in-law's scumbag of a husband. He got into an Ivy League school only because his father agreed to make some huge donations. As a college student, he didn't do any of his own work. He paid someone to write all of his essays and exams. He's 60 now and he still boasts about this. He also looks down on anyone who puts in 14-hour days just to pay the mortgage. Meanwhile, he's a problem gambler who's been banned from numerous casinos for card-counting.

Apologies for the digression. My point is that the US is not a bastion of fair play. I don't even think we have a universally accepted definition of the concept.

Oh for sure it’s bad here. I would add there is a sense of entitlement that also comes along with cheating here in the way you describe. It’s been fun to see the blue exam booklets come back.

I will say that there is such an odd culture around sports cheating in the States, almost as if it is the ultimate faux pas. It’s perceived the worst possible kind of cheating imaginable here. It’s such a weird dichotomy.