How Vault is Scored

[tempest]

good video of the one handed vault

 

[ruby]

good video of the one handed vault

Watch her use backwards twisting technique off the table. I do hope she doesn't figure out how to get the second hand on the table with that technique because she is doing a quarter on, bw 1 3/4 off. It's a little bit like Kasamatsu technique but doesn't use pure fwd salto and fwd twisting because she gets on the table as if she did a Tsuk. Even if she figures out the second hand, the vault should be judged much more harshly because it is a Kas/Tsuk hybrid in disguise.

 

[Aeris]

Lots of people have used a sideways entry like that, it's supposed to be .3 deduction, but that's not going to stop most people from doing a Cheng if they can land it decently (and with enough of a 2 hand contact).

 

[ruby]

Yes they have but hers is even further from the required technique. Her post flight is quite good so if she figures out the 2nd hand she will only score the deduction for the incomplete turn, precision and maybe .1 in pre-flight lower than Andrade. Which would be eregious.
Schönmeier is a great vaulter but that vault isn't it.

 

[Aeris]

I mean you just listed .5 more deductions compared to Andrade on pre-flight alone, I'm not worried about Andrade being threatened if the deductions are actually taken.

It's really no different than a Kas entry + 1.75 twist ("Double Tsuk", 5.2 start) as compared to a Rudi (5.4 start). The sideways entry roundoff 1/2-on vaults should be considered their own vault type, with .2 lower start value than the Lopez/Cheng family.

 

[Denn]

Watch her use backwards twisting technique off the table. I do hope she doesn't figure out how to get the second hand on the table with that technique because she is doing a quarter on, bw 1 3/4 off. It's a little bit like Kasamatsu technique but doesn't use pure fwd salto and fwd twisting because she gets on the table as if she did a Tsuk. Even if she figures out the second hand, the vault should be judged much more harshly because it is a Kas/Tsuk hybrid in disguise.

I've been calling it "Chengmatsu" because the repulsion and post-flight are exactly the same as a Kasamatsu-full. It's more like a sideways salto with twist.

My understanding is that, even if she pushes with the second hand, there's 0.4 in deductions to take.

But I don't understand why there's only a ≤45° deduction. Schoenmaier is about 90° short in her preflight turn. And 0.3 is a harsh deduction for being just a little short of preflight twist. I would love to see 0.1 for ≤ 30°, 0.3 for 31°-60°, and 0.5 for 60°–90°.

I also think that, while they're at it, they should clarify that Kasamatsu repulsion/post-flight is closer to a salto forward and therefore cannot earn 0.2 bonus when the other vault is a forward vault ... unless the vaults have different number of saltos (e.g. Kas-full and Produnova).

and Limit the staggered hand placement deduction to vaults with no preflight turn, since the preflight turn deduction can be used to penalize the same error Sorry, I take that back. Obviously, hands can be staggered with complete twist.

What do you all think?

 

[ruby]

I've been calling it "Chengmatsu" because the repulsion and post-flight are exactly the same as a Kasamatsu-full. It's more like a sideways salto with twist.

My understanding is that, even if she pushes with the second hand, there's 0.4 in deductions to take. View attachment 13091
But I don't understand why there's only a ≤45° deduction. Schoenmaier is about 90° short in her preflight turn. And 0.3 is a harsh deduction for being just a little short of preflight twist. I would love to see 0.1 for ≤ 30°, 0.3 for 31°-60°, and 0.5 for 60°–90°.

I also think that, while they're at it, they should clarify that Kasamatsu repulsion/post-flight is closer to a salto forward and therefore cannot earn 0.2 bonus when the other vault is a forward vault ... unless the vaults have different number of saltos (e.g. Kas-full and Produnova).

and Limit the staggered hand placement deduction to vaults with no preflight turn, since the preflight turn deduction can be used to penalize the same error Sorry, I take that back. Obviously, hands can be staggered with complete twist.

What do you all think?

I think vault deductions need to be overhauled or rather, the approach to the whole event needs to be reconsidered. Glaring technical and/or form errors need to be judged much more harshly to bring the results in line with other events. At the very least, two different vaults, with deductions for both vaults taken off the same 10.0 E start should be required for all phases of competition.

Deductions for lack of completion of turn are fine - small increments are incredibly hard to see in real time unless you are allowed to focus on pre- flight and push-off only.

 

[Denn]

I think vault deductions need to be overhauled or rather, the approach to the whole event needs to be reconsidered. Glaring technical and/or form errors need to be judged much more harshly to bring the results in line with other events. At the very least, two different vaults, with deductions for both vaults taken off the same 10.0 E start should be required for all phases of competition.

I agree with this 100% — I have been saying this for about 20 years in fact.

Do you remember when they had that rule for about 5 minutes back in... 2013 or 2017? But I think the two TCs made some mistakes with how they set it up. There were too many questions about averaging. I think the best way is to cut the D-scores in half so they just get added and not averaged.

I've never seen pre- and post- judged by different judges but that's an interesting idea.

US juniors have their run and board position judged as well. It can be a lot to take in and accurately record in real time, actually.

 

[ruby]

Yes, there've been a few attempts to change that about vault. I actually don"t know why the changes never made it into the final version of the Code. I agree that D scores must be added. I would keep a bonus for different post-flight, maybe add a bonus for different board-entry as well.

 

[makam]

For vault, I would be game for letting the judges see a replay at half speed 1 time before putting in their scores.

 

[Denn]

Yes, there've been a few attempts to change that about vault. I actually don"t know why the changes never made it into the final version of the Code. I agree that D scores must be added. I would keep a bonus for different post-flight, maybe add a bonus for different board-entry as well.

I think that one time (I think it was 2013?) it WAS in the final version of the code, no? But they went back on it within a matter of weeks.

Agreed on the different post-flight bonus — as well as a different repulsion phase bonus. And if you wanted to do board entry bonus for roundoff half-on and roundoff ¾ on, those vaults could just be removed, making, say, Cheng + Rudi not a possible combo of vaults since the post-flights are the same. On the other hand, I think people would be sad if Cheng and Chusovitina weren't both listed in the Code...

 

[eanda]

I think that one time (I think it was 2013?) it WAS in the final version of the code, no? But they went back on it within a matter of weeks.

I think you’re right, that it did make a final version, but ended up being very short-lived. It’s unfortunate that sorting it out wasn’t pursued, it’s very much needed. I would say 2009 or 2013, just my feeling it wasn’t as (relatively) recent as 2017.

 

[eanda]

I found a file of the August 2012 release of the 2013 CoP, confirming at that point execution for both vaults should be taken from 10. The file name indicates it's a final version, rather than draft (I have an earlier version with "draft" in the file name, and "PROVISIONAL" across every page). I have no idea how long this lasted; maybe someday I'll stumble across an update file.

 

[ruby]

I searched through my emails - thank god I never delete anything.
The VT rule only changed in April 2013, it was still taught at the Intercontinental course in Dec 2012 and the International courses in spring. There was no reason given.

 

[Aeris]

That rule was really bad, all it does is double the vault deductions for event final only.

I want to see everyone have to do 2 vaults but it needs to be implemented very precisely. The D-scores need to be scaled so that vault upgrades are still worth enough, but also without turning vault into the most important event of an AA competition. Like, we consider DTY + Lopez to be a perfectly solid vault combination, and right now Simone's YDP + Cheng is worth 2.2 points more. That's too much of an advantage. Nemour with the hardest Uneven Bars ever only gains 1 point over Simone's bars.

 

[Doug1233]

good video of the one handed vault

Am I the only one slightly perplexed by the E Score for her DTY. Especially when compared to Melnikova and Roberson.

 

[dweiss324]

2 vaults should be required, bonus for doing different vaults and different pre flights or post flights. Halve the D scores, take E score deductions for both vaults off 10, and make clearer phase specific deductions (ie, ghastly pre flights or squishy post flight or heinous block).

 

[Denn]

That rule was really bad, all it does is double the vault deductions for event final only.

I want to see everyone have to do 2 vaults but it needs to be implemented very precisely. The D-scores need to be scaled so that vault upgrades are still worth enough, but also without turning vault into the most important event of an AA competition. Like, we consider DTY + Lopez to be a perfectly solid vault combination, and right now Simone's YDP + Cheng is worth 2.2 points more. That's too much of an advantage. Nemour with the hardest Uneven Bars ever only gains 1 point over Simone's bars.

This is all true, and the simplest way to start is divide all the D-scores by 2 before adding. That makes the 2.2 difference a 1.1 difference.

(It's the same thing as averaging the D-scores, but it's easier math for people since the division by 2 is already done.)

 

[Denn]

2 vaults should be required, bonus for doing different vaults and different pre flights or post flights. Halve the D scores, take E score deductions for both vaults off 10, and make clearer phase specific deductions (ie, ghastly pre flights or squishy post flight or heinous block).

Absolutely, though what specific change would you want to the deductions?
(They are listed by phase already.)

 

[dweiss324]

I'm not a judge... But I think judging more holistically from perfection to absolute slop per phase makes sense. If preflight, block, post flight, amplitude, and landing all start out of 1.0 execution per vault, you just take each phase in turn and judge how good it was out of 10 tenths, max E score is still a ten for both vaults combined. And you can't lose more than a point per phase. I'd think of it as "from 0-10, how good was that phase?" and call it a day. Use the full range from 0-1.0 off per phase, (so you can't lose more than a point per phase).

Examples. Somebody like paseka should be losing .5+ for her pre flight alone. The one armed chengs could get the full blocking point off for not blocking appropriately (and now you don't have an arbitrary 2 point deduction), whereas people like Andrade or Simone are close to deduction free.. twister vaults could be .3-.5, or worse if you're bending your legs ... Little shuffle or lean on landing? .1 off. Step? .2. Chest down and step? .5ish. Roberson drilling a twist into crunched knees? .7. Hand / knee down? .8 off. Can't land it at all? Full point. Just, use the full range of execution as it relates to each phase.