Gymcastic. Thoughts?

[irichluck21]

That totally makes sense, but i was under the impression that Butcher was saying that they wouldnt have been able to sub other team members into Simone’s spots on the other three events (e.g., Chiles on bars). That’s the bit that surprised me. Makes sense that you cant add a new person once the competition has started, but shuffling lineups using people who are on the competition floor seems a bit different.

It all depends on what was submitted on the start list.
Had Chiles not been listed as the “alternate” on bars and beam, then no she wouldn’t be able to go on that event.
If you look at the start lists, the three in team finals get to compete as the three in three up three count, the remainder of the team is listed as event alternate and are in italics. As long as they are listed per event as an alternate, they can sub in.
This is not the same case as the actual team alternate.

There was a problem in 2006 Worlds. Marta assumed USA would easily win gold with Bieger, Memmel, Liukin, and Sacramone in team finals.
So she benched Priess and Kelley because they both fell off beam in team prelims and were being punished.
So on bars for example the line up was listed as Bieger, Memmel, Liukin, Sacramone. Beam was Bieger, Sacramone, Memmel, Liukin. Floor was Bieger, Sacramone, Memmel, Liukin. Vault was Bieger, Memmel, Sacramone, Liukin.
Had Memmel not been able to do beam and floor with her injured shoulder after bars, then the US had the option of using Liukin or counting a 0 from Memmel on both beam and floor. Perhaps Liukin would do beam and then dismount with a back tuck due to her ankle injury. But on floor they would have been royally fucked.
Priess and Kelley would not have been able to sub in for Memmel on beam or floor because they were part of the 6 member team, but were foolishly left out of the team finals line up to make a point.
This could have backfired on Marta completely had Memmel not toughed it out on beam and floor.

 

[RichardL]

And if I weren’t busy at work I would add up optionals scores based on 4-3-3! I have a feeling Romania would overtake for gold.

 

[irichluck21]

I wonder what a 4-3-3 would’ve looked like with these teams:

US - Miller, Moceanu, Strug, Dawes

I am not sure that both Miller and Moceanu would have been taken for 4-4-3/4-3-3 since they were both recovering from injury and couldn’t do trials. It might have been possible that Phelps go in place of Moceanu.

 

[Sasha]

That clarifies a lot, thank you!

 

[irichluck21]

@Sasha
Chiles was listed as alternate on bars and beam.

Not sure what Butcher was thinking.
Maybe he was confused because Chiles had not warmed up bars and beam earlier in podium warm up?
Where as in 2006, Priess and Kelley were left off completely (note all the other teams have all 6 athletes listed, the US has only 4).

IIRC it was an excuse that Marta made an error with the paperwork because the coaches had decided not to use Priess or Kelley for team finals, so she didn’t realize she had to add them to the lineups as back up.
I call BS.

 

[ucrgirl]

I agree. Spencer’s methodology is questionable in my opinion. I like your point about consistently adding a decent margin of points. It’s ridiculous include someone base on adding .1-.3 on one event–especially if the added athlete can not contribute on other events.

I think it is also important to consider competitive experience when selecting WOrld and Olympic teams. One reason to consider Wong over Lincoln (assuming Wong keeps showing strong floor routines at camp) is that Wong has proven she can compete at Worlds. That experience gives me more confidence that Wong might be able to repeat her top effort during TF.

I also think it is silly for Spencer to factor in an athletes individual top score rather than an average. (Granted, average top 2-3 scores would eliminate an athlete like Wong, but it seems like the NCAA athletes are being given a chance to ramp up their training and show improvement.)

 

[ArnoldRimmer]

Romania was really fortunate to get the bronze with Russia and US going out so strong.

Eh, is it fortunate to be the most consistent team in the competition despite half your first choice squad being out? Or just having excellent big match temperament? Romania really delivered in Atlanta.

That said, I’ve always felt China in 96 were ahead of their time. They’d understood the impact of the introduction of specialists in a way no other team had. Very tactically ambitious, but of course with that comes risk.

 

[QuietColours]

My favorite calculation to use is the average across Nationals and Trials after dropping the lowest score. On the theory that people are most likely to perform how they have performed in the past, but they should also be moving towards peaking and will have more numbers in by competition. And I strongly believe you need one event backup built into the team final calculation (ie, not putting Lincoln and Roberson on the same team because that leaves you with no useable bars backup in a team final situation).

 

[makam]

It is also incredibly naive to assume scoring bias (leo/national/other less savory factors) doesn’t exist at all. You never know what the human judges are feeling in the moment and even .3 is in the noise. A little harsher here, a little looser there… if the gymnast is an EF shoo-in or brings .5 or more, maybe the “highest scoring team” might make sense. Otherwise, i would be terrible at team choices because i would go on trajectory over numerical scores.

 

[ucrgirl]

I’m not sure trajectory is a terrible way to pick a team. I think the point I was trying to make is that if Spencer insists that highest scoring team there are better ways to do the analysis than what he is proposing. (And that he is overlooking a few important considerations.)

 

[blake]

In another installment of Jessica being a twit, she claimed that it would be unfeasible to consider every religious holiday and that USAG should base it off what the majority does in reference to National Gymnastics Day conflicting with Rosh Hashanah this year. It’s akin to having NGD on Xmas or Easter.

I guess I shouldn’t be surprised she’d be completely ignorant of the fact that American society does actually cater to Christianity. Heaven forbid that any other religious group might get the same consideration Christians have in the US. It’s just incredible to me that the same woman who claims to be a social justice advocate would be so dismissive and tone deaf on this issue. If I never hear from or about her again, it’ll be too damn soon.

 

[ArnoldRimmer]

Ouch.

 

[RedBirdie]

Somehow I’ m not surprised that USAG and Jessica are this stupid. Rosh Hashanah isn’t some minor holiday! Yet here we are.

Nevermind USAG continuing to award major events to states like Texas and Florida. Whole lotta fucking lip service about inclusivity and supporting people, and then they schedule National Gymnastics Day on one of the holiest days in Judaism and award events to locales that openly hate anyone who isn’t a cis white (narrowly conservative/evangelical) Christian man.

 

[Hatsumomo]

This is something USAG is going to have to start understanding and considering. American gymnastics is the most diverse it has ever been. I certainly don’t know the religious affiliations of the gymnasts, but I can imagine that’s becoming more diverse as well. One of the recent multi-Olympic champions is Jewish. Gymnasts from lesser-represented South/Southeast Asian ethnicities. I can’t assume every Black gymnast is Christian; there are not-insignificant Jewish and Muslim Black populations.

And yes, there needs to be more thought about where national competitions and camps are held. Thankfully the camps are no longer held in some little-ass town in Texas that could also potentially be a target.

As an aside, when you look at the current shortlist for Paris, just be prepared for some fuckshit on social media and certain media outlets next year.

 

[irichluck21]

Cue up Aly Raisman on this!

 

[rlayt]

Oh no. I guess we need to consider that there will be certain groups who backlash about the probable makeup of the team. And we will see some 2nd or 3rd tier gymnasts they claim are robbed.

 

[OnoNoKomachi]

Wait, what?

USAG should learn from their mistake and get in the habit of looking up non Christian religious holidays before planning events. NGD could easily have been done at another time.

 

[navyblue]

I have to say the McKayla Maroney interview that they just republished this week is incredibly moving – and potentially even healing for those semi-tramautized ex-gymnasts among us raising_hand_man… strong recommend!