Random Russia sh*t

[Amber]

That’s why I still don’t understand why melnikova is allowed to compete, she also participted in rallies , there is also proof of that and at the time she was an adult. She competes for an army club (right?) and she went into politics before making a comeback.
MC do you know why she is allowed to compete?

 

[MaryClare]

That’s why I still don’t understand why melnikova is allowed to compete, she also participted in rallies , there is also proof of that and at the time she was an adult. She competes for an army club (right?) and she went into politics before making a comeback.
MC do you know why she is allowed to compete?

I don’t know, I know that the RGF was a little surprised she was granted AIN status immediately.
I can only assume that the difference between Melnikova and Listunova is the ambiguity. There is a lot where Melnikova is concerned and none for Listunova.
As far as I’m aware, the only ‘charge’ against Listunova is her participation at a rally when she was under 18. I don’t think there is anything else she has said or done in life or on social media that would be an issue.
Melnikova to my knowledge has not participated in any political rallies but has appeared at victory day parades. Whilst while seem very militaristic, are a long standing commemoration of the end of WW2.

 

[Matilda23]

Didn’t Melnikova post a photo of herself at the parade, but in her hand was a program that had a Z on the cover page. I agree it’s ambiguous

 

[Aizheng]

They haven’t said, but I’d assume for the same reason it was denied first time.

Listunova’s situation is certainly interesting. There’s irrefutable proof of her participating in a rally that makes her ineligible for AIN status according to FIG rules. I am not aware of anything else she has said or done that would be a problem.

I guess her case rests on the question for how long is it acceptable to punish someone for something they did as a minor. If as a minor she had committed a fairly serious crime 4 years ago, she would have already served her punishment.

I don’t look at it as an individual “punishment”. There are rules in place. If the rules do not state anything regarding age, it is only correct for her to be excluded and not been given AIN status.

It does seem like they are pretty much sticking to the exact letter of the rule, not taking into account things that should also disqualify you but are not specifically mentioned, nor extenuating circumstances.

Should the rules be phrased better? Absolutely! Should melnikova be excluded? In my opinion, yes.

I think at minimum, AIN should not be able to field a team, and all AINs should be 2-per-ing each other instead of this weird AIN-1 and AIN-2 thing.

The fact that Putin was seriously celebrating Melnikova’s win should be disqualifying, in my opinion, at least until Ukraine and Russia are in a lasting ceasefire or peace.

 

[MaryClare]

The fact that Putin was seriously celebrating Melnikova’s win should be disqualifying,

No athlete has any control over who celebrates their win

 

[Aizheng]

No athlete has any control over who celebrates their win

True, but if the FIG and Olympics were serious, Putin using Russian gymnasts for propaganda would be disqualifying for all these gymnasts. It’s not personal against the individual gymnasts, but against the regime.

Is it unfair that individual gymnasts suffer? Yes, but it’s also unfair that Ukrainian gymnasts suffer because of Putin’s war of aggression.

Not a melnikova-specific argument, though.

 

[Bob]

I think it is nonsense. There are other countries who have 'invaded/ bullied/ imposed' their wishes on other countries. If Russia are banned they should all be banned. Singling out Melnikova is odd and wrong. How can we separate the actions of Russia from the actions of others taking place at the moment in the world. I don't get it.

 

[ArnoldRimmer]

I think it is nonsense. There are other countries who have 'invaded/ bullied/ imposed' their wishes on other countries. If Russia are banned they should all be banned. Singling out Melnikova is odd and wrong. How can we separate the actions of Russia from the actions of others taking place at the moment in the world. I don't get it.

It's because there's an existing and agreed framework for sanctions based on Olympic specific misbehaviour, and only Russia has been stupid enough to violate that.

There's a discussion to be had about whether the world would've continued to overlook their nonsense if they hadn't so expansively taken the piss with doping, I grant you. But equally, it's hardly an onerous bar to clear. Just wait a bit longer to invade and don't include any foreign territory you occupy in your Olympic federation.

 

[Sasha]

Are we talking FIG or IOC here? The IOC has a clear red line, the FIG does not as far as I'm aware.

I agree that athletes shouldn't be punished for who celebrates their win. First off, it's unfair to punish them for things out of their control. Second, imagine the precedent it would set.

 

[MaryClare]

we have a thread for discussing the impact that geopolitical events have had on gymnastics in Russia and U’raine. Perhaps this discussion could be moved there and this thread can be just about gymnastics. This definitely isn’t the place to discuss political policies of the IOC or the FIG.

I am honestly so fed up with threads being hijacked by political opinions.

 

[JaJa]

we have a thread for discussing the impact that geopolitical events have had on gymnastics in Russia and U’raine. Perhaps this discussion could be moved there and this thread can be just about gymnastics. This definitely isn’t the place to discuss political policies of the IOC or the FIG.

I am honestly so fed up with threads being hijacked by political opinions.

I agree. I also think we should keep politics off this Board and that politics should be kept out of the Olympics.. AR is right that Russia violated Olympic and should be banned on that basis -- not for political reasons.

 

[ArnoldRimmer]

Maybe what we need to do is hash out exactly what goes where.

Who is and isn't permitted to compete is a huge issue in Russian gymnastics at the moment. Discussion on X gymnast is/not banned, if anyone has taken it to CAS etc could legitimately be covered in either thread, since the root cause is the wider conflict.

With that in mind, would it help to draw a specific line about what we do and don't want in this thread? For example is discussion about whether we think the text of a rule is being applied go here, or is it better off in the other thread? I've no strong feelings either way but strikes me it might help to formulate a consensus.

 

[MaryClare]

Maybe what we need to do is hash out exactly what goes where.

Who is and isn't permitted to compete is a huge issue in Russian gymnastics at the moment. Discussion on X gymnast is/not banned, if anyone has taken it to CAS etc could legitimately be covered in either thread, since the root cause is the wider conflict.

With that in mind, would it help to draw a specific line about what we do and don't want in this thread? For example is discussion about whether we think the text of a rule is being applied go here, or is it better off in the other thread? I've no strong feelings either way but strikes me it might help to formulate a consensus.

Whilst it is not at all “my” thread, I have asked repeatedly throughout it for the discussion to be kept to gymnastics. Essentially a news thread for Russian gymnastics, similar to the British one, for things that are newsworthy but do not merit a thread of their own. I was under the impression that’s what hat the majority of users wanted from this thread.

If I myself have strayed from that, I apologise. But I am careful to report facts/speculation as directly as possible without my own narrative or opinion to allow everyone to make up their own mind.

I posted about Listunova’s appeal here as a news update, because it’s an individual situation relating to one national team member. Yes it could be relevant to either thread but I don’t think it’s the same as hashing out the same tired opinion points about Russian participation like it’s still 2022. Comments like this could be made literally any time a Russian gymnast competes and it just doesn’t add anything to the conversation.

 

[rlayt]

Is Urazova retired for real? I enjoyed her style.

 

[ArnoldRimmer]

Whilst it is not at all “my” thread, I have asked repeatedly throughout it for the discussion to be kept to gymnastics. Essentially a news thread for Russian gymnastics, similar to the British one, for things that are newsworthy but do not merit a thread of their own. I was under the impression that’s what hat the majority of users wanted from this thread.

If I myself have strayed from that, I apologise. But I am careful to report facts/speculation as directly as possible without my own narrative or opinion to allow everyone to make up their own mind.

I posted about Listunova’s appeal here as a news update, because it’s an individual situation relating to one national team member. Yes it could be relevant to either thread but I don’t think it’s the same as hashing out the same tired opinion points about Russian participation like it’s still 2022. Comments like this could be made literally any time a Russian gymnast competes and it just doesn’t add anything to the conversation.

I don't think it's the same thing either. To me it seems obvious there's a continuum between bare factual statement that Listunova remains banned and full out debate over what the rules should be. My point was about where the middle ground stuff would go. But I'm also aware others may draw a different line, and ultimately I'm not the one who has to moderate it.

Fwiw I'm optimistic we can reach an equilibrium, we've got there before with other temper flaring subjects like the Chinese team's ages in 2008. I think pretty much everyone mentally adheres to the rule that it's fine to talk about something like that when it's important to the conversation but doesn't have to be acknowledged every time.

So He Kexin's fake DOB matters when, say, assessing Marta Karolyi's tenure, but doesn't have to be brought up if we're talking about whether her or Li Ya did the jaegar combination better. Similarly, although there's room for threads over who was the legitimate AA title winner in 00, people don't tend to derail if someone mentions in passing that it's 26 years since a Romanian last won it.

 

[MaryClare]

Is Urazova retired for real? I enjoyed her style.

Yes. Retired and working for the same youth movement Nagorny is involved with, holding gymnastics camps in Donetsk. In the summer she was with Produnova to reopen their old gymnastics club in Rostov following a refurbishment.

 

[Aizheng]

Im Sorry @MaryClare, I did not read the entire thread and was unaware that this had been discussed ad nauseum. My bad!

To get back on topic, I actually would be really keen to learn more about Russia’s upcoming cohort. Melnikova obviously shone in Jakarta, but her being the only RUS medalist was a bit surprising to me. Junior worlds looks to have gone well for Russia. Where would you rank the current Russian artistic gymnastics program/team, also in terms of pipeline?

It seems to be quite a popular sport, also based on some of your other comments in this thread, and having international competitions to work towards probably increased motivation.

 

[KristyJ]

If I myself have strayed from that, I apologise. But I am careful to report facts/speculation as directly as possible without my own narrative or opinion to allow everyone to make up their own mind.

Would it be fair to reply with regards to the specific gymnast and where they fit within the scope of the rules (i.e. I hope they consider that Listunova was a minor at the time), without rehashing what people feel the rules should be?

And to shift topics to Aizheng's contemplation of the Russian upcomers, I got the impression from worlds that the lack of experience negatively impacted the younger AIN competitors and I am hopeful for them that experience gained will be a boon in the future.