Men Discussion: Where do Daiki Hashimoto and Zhang Boheng fit in on the GOAT list?

[Denn]

So what do you think?

The 2 current big stars of men's gymnastics are already pretty high on the list of greats, in my opinion... Here's how I see, limiting to the past 50 years, and using World, Olympic, and World Cup AA titles (during years that World Cup AA happened and Worlds did not)

Tier 1 — Clear GOAT: Kohei Uchimura

Tier 2: Yang Wei, Daiki Hashimoto, Vitali Scherbo

Tier 3: Nikolai Andrianov,* Yuri Korolev, Dmitri Bilozertchev, Alexander Dityatin, Vladimir Artemov, Li Ning, Zhang Boheng, Xiao Ruoteng

Tier 4: Li Xiaoshuang, Paul Hamm, Alexei Nemov, Ivan Ivankov, Hiroyuki Tomita, Nikita Nagornyy

Tier 5: Shinnosuke Oka, Koji Gushikien, Fabian Hambuchen, Valeri Liukin, Nikolai Kryukov, Artur Dalaloyan, Valeri Belenky, Hrirory Misutin.

* Tier 2 if results before 1976 are included

 

[KristyJ]

I think Hashimoto is definitely moving up the list, and their rivalry also ranks among great rivalries over time.

I would be curious what criteria you are using for your groupings?

 

[Denn]

I think Hashimoto is definitely moving up the list, and their rivalry also ranks among great rivalries over time.

I would be curious what criteria you are using for your groupings?

Only by number of AA titles + AA medals


That's a good point about the rivalry. We have really not had an AA rivalry like this in a LONG time — maybe even ever?

 

[eanda]

Andrianov is Tier 2, even without the same number of medals. In his nine years at top level international competition, there were only three world championships - two of those four years apart. In a same time frame, a gymnast now would have seven world championships to compete in, and in the intermediate time of worlds every two years, gymnasts would have had five worlds.

 

[rlayt]

The Kohei/Oleg battle 2016 was so good. I love those head to head battles. But Kohei will always be the GOAT.

 

[Denn]

Andrianov is Tier 2, even without the same number of medals. In his nine years at top level international competition, there were only three world championships - two of those four years apart. In a same time frame, a gymnast now would have seven world championships to compete in, and in the intermediate time of worlds every two years, gymnasts would have had five worlds.

Did you read what I wrote? I already said that:
(a) I limited to 50 years.
(b) I included the Olympic AA and the World Cup AA results, not just World.

His silver at 1974 Worlds and gold at 1975 World Cup didn't get included. But the list was made using his wins in 76, 77, and 78, and the silver in 80. He didn't medal at 1979 Worlds in the AA and was off the map in 1981.

The Tier 2 guys all had 5 medals (including at least 2 wins). If I had included 51 or more years, Andrianov would been Tier 2 for sure.

(Note also that 1998 and 2002 didn't have AA, so Yang Wei was at a disadvantage in that regard.)

 

[KristyJ]

I feel like Li Xiaoshuang vs Alexi Nemov had so much potential if the former had continued past Altanta, but the rivalry never had a full chance to materialize.

 

[eanda]

Did you read what I wrote? I already said that:
(a) I limited to 50 years.
(b) I included the Olympic AA and the World Cup AA results, not just World.

Yes, I read what you wrote. I did lose track of the 50 years in considering Andrianov's career.

I'm well aware of his titles and career. I focused on Worlds because they changed significantly at the end of his career. The Olympics didn't, and the World Cup was new at the time and didn't change for several more years (and at some point it becomes difficult to remember exactly what format World Cup was).

You asked what did we think, although rereading, maybe that was just what do we think about where Hashimoto and Zhang fit into this. I was going to come back at another point with some thoughts on others, but since it's simply by medal count, it's pretty straight forward and I'll save my opinions for another day.

 

[Denn]

Yes, I read what you wrote. I did lose track of the 50 years in considering Andrianov's career.

I'm well aware of his titles and career. I focused on Worlds because they changed significantly at the end of his career. The Olympics didn't, and the World Cup was new at the time and didn't change for several more years (and at some point it becomes difficult to remember exactly what format World Cup was).

You asked what did we think, although rereading, maybe that was just what do we think about where Hashimoto and Zhang fit into this. I was going to come back at another point with some thoughts on others, but since it's simply by medal count, it's pretty straight forward and I'll save my opinions for another day.

To your point, I did (just) add a note about Andrianov. Also, although I did mean to ask about ZBH and Hashimoto, I think it's great to discuss others, too.

I asked if you read what I wrote because it was a long post and easy to gloss over the blah blah blah before the list, LOL.

I included World Cup to make it fair. Sounds like you support that approach, yes?

 

[Aeris]

Zhang Boheng's federation not letting him compete at an Olympics and a Worlds needs to be taken into account. His 2023 Asian Games performance is better than anything Hashimoto has ever done, they should be tied for World AA titles right now, and who knows how the 2021 Olympics would have gone. At the very least ZBH gets a team medal there.

 

[eanda]

Why was Zhang kept out of those Olympics and Worlds? Is it the way China was trying to build its team in those years or politics?

I definitely agree with World Cups being included. Those were always strong, top fields. Is there a reason not to include World Cups taking place in World Championship years?

I don't know how they themselves saw it, but it's interesting to look at Korolyov and Bilozerchev, during the 80s with their alternating World titles. They have some comparable results, but in the head-to-head in major competitons, Bilozerchev comes away the clear winner.

 

[Denn]

@eanda I really don't understand. He was already 19 years old by 2019 Worlds and age 21 by the Olympics. So it's not like he was a baby.

I wonder if it's somehow related to his tendency to pull out of competitions. Even at 2021 Worlds, he pulled out of all apparatus finals. Which was significant because he qualified in medal position for both Rings and Pbars. (He also was 1st reserve for both HB and PH finals, and rejected the call to step into PH final when someone withdrew. So he could have done 3 finals!)

He has a recurring back injury. Maybe that? Or maybe it's a competition issue that he sorted out since then?

 

[Passion]

2021 the official excuse used was he didn’t have enough experience for the Olympics. Politically it was.. in some people’s best interests.. that Zhang Boheng not be a challenge to Xiao Ruoteng (from Beijing) in Tokyo. Lin Chaopan was put on the team instead.

2023 China prioritized the Asian Games, which were held in China. They overlapped with Worlds that year because of Covid delays. Zhang Boheng was sent to the meet that was more important to win.

 

[Denn]

Wait, @Passion you're claiming that the Chinese federation brought Lin Chaopan instead of Zhang Boheng in order to prevent Zhang Boheng from beating Xiao Ruoteng in the All-Around???

If so, do you remember who said this at the time? That's WEIRD.

 

[Passion]

It's not the federation unilaterally making the decision, it's a bunch of different factions pushing for who they want and how much political capital they have to make it happen. Fujian was pushing for Lin Chaopan, Fujian has pull because that's where Anta, the main sponsor, is located. Beijing was backing Xiao Ruoteng, they want the best conditions for him to have the top results. Sun Wei was seen as the veteran. Zou Jingyuan was a lock for PB gold.

Xiao Ruoteng confirmed on weibo, they let the athletes vote on who they wanted for the team between Zhang Boheng, Lin Chaopan, and Deng Shudi. Xiao Ruoteng and Sun Wei both voted for Lin Chaopan. Zou Jingyuan voted for Zhang Boheng. I don't know how much weight, if any, this vote actually had on the ultimate makeup of the team. But it was used to say Lin Chaopan's inclusion had the support of his teammates, and he was made team captain.

Here's the official team announcement with the excuses: https://www.sport.gov.cn/n4/n23367510/n23367752/c23590616/content.html

A blogger who goes in depth on the sponsorship angle:

https://www.zhihu.com/question/475107394

This explains prize money distributions if ZBH had replaced SW or XRT in the AA Final.

https://www.bilibili.com/opus/555812052791100869

利益纠葛。中国体操男队话语权最重的是两位王教练——王红卫，王国庆。肖若腾、邹敬园是王红卫的徒弟，孙炜、林超攀是王国庆的徒弟，而张博恒并不是两位中任何一位的徒弟。奥运前八便有奖金，如果带了张博恒，将会多出一个教练组来瓜分奖金，想必他们并不愿意看见。而张博恒在赛前已经有如此大的全能竞争力，如果带了张博恒，预赛肖若腾与孙炜一旦出现失误，将很有可能会有一个被张博恒挤出全能决赛（每个代表队每个项目最多只能进2个到决赛），同时也会影响两位王教练分全能的奖金，想必两位王教练并不愿意看见。而林超攀不同，他的全能竞争力远不如肖若腾、孙炜，他的存在不会影响两位王教练在全能决赛名单发布以及奖金分配的平衡。

 

[Denn]

Thanks for sharing all of that. I really appreciate your breakdown.

I would also argue that Zhang Boheng deserved to go to that Olympics more than Sun Wei, nevermind Lin Chaopan... but...

 

[OnoNoKomachi]

they let the athletes vote on who they wanted for the team

And people complain about US MAG selection procedures...