Men Discussion: Where do Daiki Hashimoto and Zhang Boheng fit in on the GOAT list?

[Denn]

So what do you think?

The 2 current big stars of men's gymnastics are already pretty high on the list of greats, in my opinion... Here's how I see, limiting to the past 50 years, and using World, Olympic, and World Cup AA titles (during years that World Cup AA happened and Worlds did not)

Tier 1 — Clear GOAT: Kohei Uchimura

Tier 2: Yang Wei, Daiki Hashimoto, Vitali Scherbo

Tier 3: Nikolai Andrianov,* Yuri Korolev, Dmitri Bilozertchev, Alexander Dityatin, Vladimir Artemov, Li Ning, Zhang Boheng, Xiao Ruoteng

Tier 4: Li Xiaoshuang, Paul Hamm, Alexei Nemov, Ivan Ivankov, Hiroyuki Tomita, Nikita Nagornyy

Tier 5: Shinnosuke Oka, Koji Gushikien, Fabian Hambuchen, Valeri Liukin, Nikolai Kryukov, Artur Dalaloyan, Valeri Belenky, Hrirory Misutin.

* Tier 2 if results before 1976 are included

 

[KristyJ]

I think Hashimoto is definitely moving up the list, and their rivalry also ranks among great rivalries over time.

I would be curious what criteria you are using for your groupings?

 

[Denn]

I think Hashimoto is definitely moving up the list, and their rivalry also ranks among great rivalries over time.

I would be curious what criteria you are using for your groupings?

Only by number of AA titles + AA medals


That's a good point about the rivalry. We have really not had an AA rivalry like this in a LONG time — maybe even ever?

 

[eanda]

Andrianov is Tier 2, even without the same number of medals. In his nine years at top level international competition, there were only three world championships - two of those four years apart. In a same time frame, a gymnast now would have seven world championships to compete in, and in the intermediate time of worlds every two years, gymnasts would have had five worlds.

 

[rlayt]

The Kohei/Oleg battle 2016 was so good. I love those head to head battles. But Kohei will always be the GOAT.

 

[Denn]

Andrianov is Tier 2, even without the same number of medals. In his nine years at top level international competition, there were only three world championships - two of those four years apart. In a same time frame, a gymnast now would have seven world championships to compete in, and in the intermediate time of worlds every two years, gymnasts would have had five worlds.

Did you read what I wrote? I already said that:
(a) I limited to 50 years.
(b) I included the Olympic AA and the World Cup AA results, not just World.

His silver at 1974 Worlds and gold at 1975 World Cup didn't get included. But the list was made using his wins in 76, 77, and 78, and the silver in 80. He didn't medal at 1979 Worlds in the AA and was off the map in 1981.

The Tier 2 guys all had 5 medals (including at least 2 wins). If I had included 51 or more years, Andrianov would been Tier 2 for sure.

(Note also that 1998 and 2002 didn't have AA, so Yang Wei was at a disadvantage in that regard.)

 

[KristyJ]

I feel like Li Xiaoshuang vs Alexi Nemov had so much potential if the former had continued past Altanta, but the rivalry never had a full chance to materialize.

 

[eanda]

Did you read what I wrote? I already said that:
(a) I limited to 50 years.
(b) I included the Olympic AA and the World Cup AA results, not just World.

Yes, I read what you wrote. I did lose track of the 50 years in considering Andrianov's career.

I'm well aware of his titles and career. I focused on Worlds because they changed significantly at the end of his career. The Olympics didn't, and the World Cup was new at the time and didn't change for several more years (and at some point it becomes difficult to remember exactly what format World Cup was).

You asked what did we think, although rereading, maybe that was just what do we think about where Hashimoto and Zhang fit into this. I was going to come back at another point with some thoughts on others, but since it's simply by medal count, it's pretty straight forward and I'll save my opinions for another day.

 

[Denn]

Yes, I read what you wrote. I did lose track of the 50 years in considering Andrianov's career.

I'm well aware of his titles and career. I focused on Worlds because they changed significantly at the end of his career. The Olympics didn't, and the World Cup was new at the time and didn't change for several more years (and at some point it becomes difficult to remember exactly what format World Cup was).

You asked what did we think, although rereading, maybe that was just what do we think about where Hashimoto and Zhang fit into this. I was going to come back at another point with some thoughts on others, but since it's simply by medal count, it's pretty straight forward and I'll save my opinions for another day.

To your point, I did (just) add a note about Andrianov. Also, although I did mean to ask about ZBH and Hashimoto, I think it's great to discuss others, too.

I asked if you read what I wrote because it was a long post and easy to gloss over the blah blah blah before the list, LOL.

I included World Cup to make it fair. Sounds like you support that approach, yes?

 

[Aeris]

Zhang Boheng's federation not letting him compete at an Olympics and a Worlds needs to be taken into account. His 2023 Asian Games performance is better than anything Hashimoto has ever done, they should be tied for World AA titles right now, and who knows how the 2021 Olympics would have gone. At the very least ZBH gets a team medal there.